SQPerformance

Horsepower Kitchen => Projects => Topic started by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 07:26:40 PM

Title: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 07:26:40 PM
I have been data logging the stock Ecu for a while now, what do you want to know?

My logs show that Unbaffled ahp's cause erratic airflow signals using the a mitsu mas. This effect looks to be a major factor behind "fuel cut symptoms" when using the bigger bolt on turbos. And makes it hard to dial in the afr with an afc. The stock accordion pipe alone has a significant smoothing effect, but is some what restrictive.

So i am going to try this baffle with a shortened ahp.


(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC01853.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 07:30:55 PM
I am using innovatemotorsports Logworks 3. You can down load here.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support.php

I have an LC1 wide band, x16 gauge and two SSI-4 logger boxes i picked up second hand on ebay for about $70 each. Good luck finding used ones. The lc1 is not required to use the ssi-4 input boxes.
Hks rpm converter . One can be made for less.
GM 3 bar map sensor.

Any wide band can be logged via a 0-5v input on the ssi-4. The x-16 gets it's signal on the serial data cable, so there is less chance of error compared to a 0-5v gauge.

Edit, i added more info on the data loggers on page 2 Oct 14-10 post

I shortened the ahp and put the baffle between the hard pipe and 4" x 3" coupler from the 2g mas.

Picture of the un baffled set up.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC01631.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 07:59:48 PM
The air flow hz is the line that looks like an earth quake in the first two pictures.

Stock Mas, Street pull probably 3rd gear @ 15-16 lbs  with ahp
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/StarionMAS.jpg)

1g Mas with ahp 1900 hz of air flow
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/FirstGenMAS.jpg)

Here is a picture of the 1g airflow signal when i put the stock accordion pipe back on and the baffle back in the air can.  Much stabler signal even at 1900 hz. I am starting to think there is a reason that baffle is in there.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/stockairintakehose.jpg)

2G Mas
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/2GMas1.jpg)

"Fuel cut" On a 1G mas. It looks like the air flow went erratic and dropped out. Ecu cut duty cycle back to match the erroneous signal and afr when to lean to ignite.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Fuelcut.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
At the time i was using a hks fcon.

The Hks fcon has a smoothing effect on the injector pulse width ( maximum effect seems to require level 4 or higher.) I did not know that at the time the above logs were taken. So the effect of the chopply airflow on the duty cycle is less in some of those logs than it would be with out the fcon.
So does 100% duty cycle.  :lol: When i went to the bigger injectors it got a whole lot harder to tune.  :(

I know now the fcon was letting me run the 100% duty cycle with out load based fuel cut symptoms. Edited 10-12-10
The up down up down itself is not really a problem. It is when i get 2 or 3 downs in a row for no good reason and the ecu duty cycle tracks that, that it is a problem. In the logs the duty cycle dips lag behind the air flow dips a little
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 08:06:01 PM
Quote from: Shelby
were you able to log a stock mass with stock  air filter housing ,,it'd be interesting to see  the wave  pattern , i bet a stock set up would be a much smoother  line
I have not logged that combo of parts. The stock accordion pipe and stock baffle smooth the signal, but starves the turbo for air. I was hard pressed to get more than 18 psi at the track with both
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 08:10:47 PM
The mas i use is a 2g mas (609) from a second gen eclipse turbo or 3.5 montero. I have a translator here, but have not tried it yet. Zero tune drift with the weather with the 2g mas set up.  :wink:  Note the 2g runs 20-25% leaner so something to tune with is required.

Edit, 10-19-10 I did find i get some tune drift with this set up. From 65-95 degrees it will lean out about .3 afr The dsm guys say the 2g mas is better in this respect than a maft.

Quote
The 2g mas is a proven upgrade on a 1g dsm. Requires about 20-25 % bigger injectors and or compensation with an afc. It seems the 2.6 is quite capable of exceeding the metering capabilities of the 1g with the bigger bolt on turbos.

I do not know to much about dsm's. It looks like the 2 gen went onto production 94-01-01 (95 model year) and 1st gen production ended a little later.

Looks to be part # MB183609 Search 2g mas or maf on ebay, used on some v6 models as well.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/2gmas95-99.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 08:16:25 PM
A good picture of the change in duty cycle when the ecu switches from the primary to both injectors. (Stock size Mitsu injectors in these pictures)

The afr goes out of whack around the transition point if the size ratio is less than stock.With 2 secondaries the afr would jump up 1.5 to 2 after the transition to both injectors. I had my afc throttle points at 20% and 32%. The High throttle being my both injector tune and the low being my primary only tune. It worked to a point, but i still had to drive around the problem area.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Secondaryonsetatlightthrottle.jpg)

A good screen shot of the secondary kicking in at low rpms in response to tps movement.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/TPSinrichment.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 08:19:37 PM
Looking at the logs the secondary kicks in about 390 hz of air flow. The exception being if it is on in response to tps movement.

The secondary looks to shut down about 290 hz of air flow.

I am currently dialing in the tune on some new 850/1400 injectors. The size ratio is still off a tad, but they are working much better at the transition point from the primary to both injectors than the two secondaries were.

I purchased the injectors from Lower shores performance. Unmodified they are different lengths, he machined them so they could be used together with an extra seal on the 1400.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC01860.jpg)

Well the baffle i made for the ahp seems to be working. Airflow signal is maybe not quite as smooth as with a unbaffled stock accordion hose, but much improved over just the ahp. I tried it horizontal and vertical. I think vertical is a little better for my 2g mas.

I picked up about 1.5 psi over the stock accordion hose.  :)  :)

I am getting the new injectors dialed in, and was hitting 22 psi and trapping  103 mph  at the track friday.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC01853.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2012, 08:26:27 PM
Quote from: StarWolf
Wow this is interesting...

In fact it seems to me my bucking with my car started with my removing my baffle from my stock air can...before that i could boost much higher...now i can only boost about 15psi ...any higher i get a rich spike and jerk. I am also working on fixing up my distributor but obviously you have found some results. Im sure the Mitsubishi engineers didn't put that baffle in there for no reason...this could prove to be really nice. You could pick yourself up a stock air can just for the hell of it and do some testing  :P
I had the same thing happen when i went to a air intake hard pipe. It totally jacked the mas signal.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:25:51 PM
This pic shows how injectors with a non stock size ratio afect the afr at the transition point. In this case i was running two secondaries.

 Secondary kicked in and than i backed off a little, but car stayed on both injectors. I was probably going up hill. 20% tps was my primary injector tune and 32% my both injector tune. You can see the afr rise as i backed of and than go back to normal when the ecu switched back to the primary injector.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/2Secondarys.jpg)

A 13.65 @ 103 track run on my new 850/1400 injectors.  :D
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/136710378.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:27:18 PM
At light throttle near steady rpm the duty cycle of the primary goes from about 52% to 22% when the secondary kicks in. Ideally when we choose injectors we would want to know the flow rates at those duty cycles for the stock injectors and the after market ones to pick after market ones that give the smoother transition.

Stock injectors. I use 580 cc and 1000 cc for comparison.

580 + 73% =1003
850 + 67% = 1420 (my 1400 tested at 1420)

650 + 46% = 949  There is likely an imbalance here, but that is what you are stuck with if you have nothing to tune with.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:28:43 PM
Quote from: StarWolf
Wow this is interesting...

In fact it seems to me my bucking with my car started with my removing my baffle from my stock air can...before that i could boost much higher...now i can only boost about 15psi ...any higher i get a rich spike and jerk. I am also working on fixing up my distributor but obviously you have found some results. I'm sure the Mitsubishi engineers didn't put that baffle in there for no reason...this could prove to be really nice. You could pick yourself up a stock air can just for the hell of it and do some testing  :P
There are two things at play here. One the signal is likely not as accurate. Two the turbo spools quicker with out the  baffle and the airflow signal rises quicker. The ecu throws fuel at the engine in response to the airflow and over does it. The  car goes too rich and misfires.

It was also suggested by the maft tech people that obstructions to the air flow around the filter can be a factor.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:31:17 PM
It looks like the fuel map goes to about 2000 hz. That's about 20 psi with a bigger bolt on turbo. Not saying it was programmed to run right at that air flow, but just to throw plenty of fuel at the situation.

When  the ecu sees average air flow in that range the injectors are at 100 %.  I have also noticed at about 4800 rpm it seems the ecu adds extra fuel. Not sure if that applies at lower air flows.

The last time i had a stock mas on it did seem to run leaner under boost. Most of my older logs the hks fcon was influencing the duty cycle and afr. I would have to run the one g and stock mas with the fcon zeroed out to really see what the difference
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:35:13 PM
Another view of "fuel cut" using a 1g mas. This is actually mas over run. This crap blows motors.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Fuelcutdifferentview1-1.jpg)

For those who think there is no limit to stock injectors. Note the afr headed north. The more rpms the less time the injectors have to supply the needed fuel. The aborted run was at higher boost than the first 2. This car had a 274 cam, 17c turbo and everything kdm sells. Stock 80k bottom end.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/ChrisDynojpg1-2.jpg)

Edit, bigger picture
Setting up a gauge in Logworks. The input box needs to be programmed with similar info.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Gaugesetup-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:38:09 PM
Quote from: funkyp
Just curious, in this Log it says 2G MAS @ 19psi. Care to share what other fuel and turbo mods where done? It has a very safe AFR.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/2GMas1.jpg)
That was the the first 2g track outing. 19c turbo stock Mitsu injectors. Tuned with Hks fcon gcc. I do not know what the fcon was set at. The gcc was full rich +16%.

I know now that was two rich, that was about .1 above misfiring.

That log is a good example of how smooth the afr was on that set up at when the injectors are at 100%  When i went to bigger injectors the choppy ness off the air flow and duty cycle became a issue again.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:40:16 PM
Quote from: funkyp
This also has me curious, If you were to swap in a caravan module, I wonder if everything would work fine? Then you could possibly tap into it for spark angle datalogging???

Phil
Logworks 3 does not support logging timing. Logworks 2 does (36-1 crank trigger wheel should work) Many have had trouble getting it work even with logworks 2.

I would love to know when and if the knock sensor is pulling timing. Logging the advance curve might be a way to do it. I doubt i could make any sense out of the raw knock sensor signal. That's worth a shot i guess.

Scott87star has some timing charts of the stock timing curve that are probably very accurate.

I tried logging the speed sensor in the speedometer, but could not get it to work. Maybe i should try it with a voltage divider circuit.

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:41:56 PM
Some more info on the data logger boxes.

I have two ssi-4 loggers, http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/ssi_4.php  I have a gm 3 bar map sensor, which is used just to send a  boost signal to the logger. I also have a Radio Shack serial to usb adapter as my laptop does not have a serial port. Not all adapters work, the radio shack one are the one sold by innovate are recommended.

They also sell a LMA-3  http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lma3.php  which has a build in map sensor and internal accelerometer

Getting the rpm to work requires a voltage divider circuit. I initially used a hks rpm level converter. (Needed with the Neo afc as well). After I installed the msd ignition box, the hks part no longer worked, so now I use a potentiometer to reduce the voltage from the coil neg to a level the Innovate products can read. The neo does not need  any thing to read rpm with the msd ignition installed.
http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1928 

The soft ware and units can be buggy and difficult to get the  lap top to connect.  The rewards of data logging are great however.

The correct size ratio between the small and large injector is important. Stock is approximately 580 + 73% = 1003 cc.  I have 850 + 65% = 1400cc.  On paper the 650/950 Delphi's do not appear to be the optimum size ratio, but that is what works with out tuning. That said some have tried 650/1050 or 650/1150 and not been able to tune it with a maft. I ran a maft with my neo for about two weeks, but ran in to an issue I could not see a way around. So I went back to the 2g mas.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:46:11 PM
A msd type ignition has a tack wire that should work for rpm as well. My msd is causing issues off boost though. Maybe a bad unit, i do not know yet. Edit, a faulty egr valve way the primary issue.

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=110527&st=0&p=1075157&fromsearch=1&#entry1075157
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:55:45 PM
I talk about my limited experience with the maft here. Air flow signal was very smooth, but i could not get the afr to smooth out. Edit, i eventually came to realize the after market injectors have more dead time or latency than the oem's. Since the ecu apparently makes a fueling strategy change at 1350 hz. Less but longer pules it effected the actual fuel delivery from the after market injectors. The solution was an injector driver box. But i have not yet retied the maft.

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=110230&st=0&p=1072476&fromsearch=1&#entry1072476

When i had a maft on my car it would dip rich about 1400 hz for no apparent reason. This log was surly influenced by the hks fcon, but on the down hill pull i never quite got to the 1400 hz point.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/maftdownuphill.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/AFRdip.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:58:20 PM
Some random pictures i posted elsewhere.

I ran into what looks to be a dsm style fuel cut running E85. I was adding about 25% fuel at wot and 30% at cruise on top of my gas settings. The air flow was above 2000hz for about .5 seconds prior to the injectors shutting off.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/E85fuelcut.jpg)

19c boost trace vs 18g tdo5 boost trace at the track. The faster spool of the 18g made a even bigger difference in 1st and second gear.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/18gtdo5vs19ctdo5h.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/18gvs19c.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 07:59:56 PM
I taped my egr back off plate so i can start logging turbine back pressure. I need to install another sensor so i can log both boost and back pressure at the same time.

The #'s i came up with really do not seem that bad. But the trend was the turbine back pressure climbing with rpm. This was a 17c 05h with an intercooler upgrade, 52mm throttle body and 3" exhaust with cat and quite muffler. Stock size ss valves and some head porting. It will be a while till i can do a log at 25 psi of boost.

I made a pull logging turbine back pressure, than switched my map sensor back to boost duty and made another pull on the same stretch of road. I then over layed the one log on the other. For some reason my car accelerated a little faster on the boost pull, so the ratio could be off a little.

Boost was about 16 psi and back pressure peaked at 23 psi. For a ratio of about 1.43.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Turbinbackpressure-1.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02194.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 08:05:55 PM
Quote from: funkyp
this is cool, it should climb with boost and rpm. I wonder what its like on a larger turbine

?? Shouldn't it waiver similar to afr and boost? I looks more like its pegged
Waiver? The top line is tps. The second from the top is turbine back pressure. I think the choppyness is from the ebc modulating the waste gate. They are not the same pull other wise we would probably see a relationship between the chop in the boost trace vs the chop in the back pressure trace.

As the turbo works harder to maintain a higher boost and support more rpm the back pressure will surely rise. The v8 turbo racers pay a lot of attention to back pressure. A 1-1 ratio is ideal but seldom achieved. High back pressure  can cause reversion problems, where exhaust is pushed in to the cylinders preventing a full fill of fresh air and fuel. And detonation problems

My 3 bar map sensor is good for 30 psi. At 25 psi of boost back pressure could be in the mid to upper 40's. So i am looking at some 0-100 psi sensors used for fuel and oil pressure.

Quote from: funkyp
Actually, hahahaha its funny you brought up reversion. Ive been researching doing my own cam for that simple reason.

But thats another place/another time  :lol:
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 08:08:05 PM
I wanted to do a more through test. But my preferred up hill 3rd gear pull spot was being watched by the cops, and holiday traffic was heavy. So i used a section of flat road.

I like a uphill 3rd gear pull cause it puts a little more load on the engine and gives more consistent results. It all so approximates the load of the local dynajet really well. 4th gear street pulls are just asking for trouble.

On my side of town there are not to many spots safe from cross traffic
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 08:13:08 PM
Since my cars starts up real rich on cold starts up in freezing weather, i lean it out 10% with my neo afc till it warms up a little. So i leaned it out before i shut it down and got an interesting log. 10% makes a big difference in the afr at idle. You can also see the isc opening the throttle to compensate.

The finest adjustment on a maft at idle is 5%.  :o . A decent afc can do 1% changes  :)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Afceffectonidle.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 08:16:24 PM
I am not sure why the fuel pressure is lower in first and second.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/FuelPressure1-2-3.jpg)

The fuel pressure seems to play catch up a little after shifts. Notice how the lean spike after the missed shift is worse.

Edit, these were signs i was running out of fuel pump capacity.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/FuelPressure3-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 08:22:39 PM
The pump is a n older Bosch 0580464048 Maybe 8-10 years old. I was running E85 and injector duty cycles were above 95% in all 4 gears once full boost was obtained. (850/1400 injectors) There was no sign of the pump running out of pressure or volume.

I suspect the engine was running away from the turbo in the lower gears, and in third and 4th there was a pressure differential between where the regulator measures boost above the throttle plate and where the data logger measures boost at the port between 3 and 4.

My gauge is my lap top. Eyes and memory can be unreliable. All the info  is recorded and can be reviewed over and over again. This sensor is advertised as 1% accuracy and temperature compensated. Edit, but only temp compensated to about 130*

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02233.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 08:32:03 PM
The fuel pressure seems to play catch up a little after shifts. Notice how the lean spike after the missed shift is worse.

Quote from: funkyp
I wouldn't be worried about that. When you let off it goes lean. That's normal. When you get back into boost AFR is under 12 before you ever hit max boost. that's ideal for HP

Edit, the lean spike is one of the down sides off running big injectors with a afc. The tps enrichment is inadequate. The maft 2 and pro units have adjustments for this, but i have not tried them.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 09, 2012, 08:34:02 PM
April 1 2011

All the positive correction needed from my neo afc to run the E85 seems to exaggerate the lean spike.

I am working on getting some 1050/1800 injectors that should give me enough fuel to make 300 on the e85. And the 100 plus octane of the ethanol should keep the new 8-1  compression motor alive at 25 psi.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: funkyp

Umm, if you put a properly size turbo on there you wouldnt need E85 to hit 300whp....... 8.1CR isnt high

If anything you need ignition control
Quote from: Used car salesmen
The wourld will end if you run E-85

Well the rest of the world is running E85 or E98 and making big power with big boost on engines of 10-1 or even higher. The starquest world is in the stone ages.

Phil, your turbo is loafing at 18 psi right? Give it some e85 octane and charge air cooling effect and crank that turbo into the top of its efficiency range. Hell even Technology figured that out.  8)

Race gas is fine, but $12 bucks a  gallon verse $3 for E85.

PQ, E85 (ethanol) requires about 30% more volume in real world applications. Methanol requires even more and is the more corrosive of the two. 11-2012 Edit, over two years running e-85. So far my mosty 23 plus year old fuel lnes and tank are doing fine.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 06:59:40 PM
Quote from: mitsusqueeshee
So what modifications are required to run methanol?  A friend of mine is trying to steer me in this direction also.
That probably should be a different thread. There are significant difference between ethanol and methanol. Be careful not to interchange the terms.

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: funkyp
Quote from: StarquestRescue
Well the rest of the world is running E85 or E98 and making big power with big boost on engines of 10-1 or even higher. The starquest world is in the stone ages.

Phil, your turbo is loafing at 18 psi right? Give it some e85 octane and charge air cooling effect and crank that turbo into the top of its efficiency range. Hell even Technology figured that out.  8)

Race gas is fine, but $12 bucks a  gallon verse $3 for E85.

PQ, E85 (ethanol) requires about 30% more volume in real world applications. Methanol requires even more and is the more corrosive of the two.

Listen, I know the capabilities of E85/E90. Its not easily obtainable for me so I refuse to use it. And unless you purchasing it direct in 55gal drums you risk hitting pumps with winter blend E70. So now what?? Retune....yep!

I drive my car a lot, so unless there's an E85 pump at every corner, you risk running outta fuel and having to mix because you just cut you mpg's by a quarter.  :roll:

I can make the same results (without trying) with meth injection and 91oct.

Im merely pointing out that if your only chasing 350whp, E85 is a waste. Put on a proper turbo and your there. Oh yeah, And you'll have less backpressure. 2 birds with 1 stone.  :lol:  :lol:
E-85 is not at all a waste. All most any turbo setup will make more power on e-85. If you do not request it. They will not bring it to your area. If they bring it, and you do not buy, do not expect it to be there in the future. Drums can be purchased as well. And shipped economically 3 drums to a pallet.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:10:06 PM
Well i under stand it is not available in all areas.

One of the benefits of my afc based tuning system is that is is easy to re tune if i get in a jam and have to switch fuels. It takes maybe 5 minutes tops to say add or substract 25% or what ever % i figure i need to get in the ball park.

I agree i am nearing the limits of the bolt on turbos. But a real turbo is $1300 bucks, plus a redo of the exhaust, plus an external gate. Hell i need an external gate now. LOL But that would require an exhaust redo that is hard to justify with out going real turbo.

I do have a Chad header on the shelf, but if the thing cracks shortly after i spend bucks on an exhaust redo to fit it it would tic me off.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:13:28 PM
I think i posted this already, but here it is again.

The math behind why the correct injector size ratio is important. Ideally we would want to know more precisely what the injectors flow at 17% and 45%. A fuel translator or afc can tune on either side of the transition point. But not at the transition pont it's self, as it has no way of knowing if the car is on one or both injectors.

On the 87-89 cars when the primary reaches about 45% duty cycle under light load, the secondary kicks in and both injectors fire at about 17% duty cycle.

Stock injector size is about 580/1000

580cc at 45% = about 261cc of fuel.
580cc at 17% = 98cc + 1000 at 17% = 170 cc = 268 of fuel. The result is a seamless transition from one to both injectors.

Now lets do the same math with same size injectors.
1000 at 45% = 450 cc
1000 at 17% = 170 + 1000 at 17% = 170 =340 cc of fuel.

450cc - 24% = 340cc. Running same size injectors, your motor just went 24% leaner on both injectors than is was on just the primary.  That's almost a 2 point afr change.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:17:04 PM
June 18 2011. Forged piston motor being broken in.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/th_MOV02409.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/?action=view&current=MOV02409.mp4)
Quote from: funkyp
Nice! Can't wait to see it in action!!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:19:00 PM
I was out putting around yesterday at 8 psi and a really nice supercharged sc t-bird wanted to play.  8) I had to decline the invitation.  :(

So today i got the car inspected and decided to finish the break in at the track. Ran a 14.10 @ 99..6  2.053 60"   9.09 / 79.18  1/8. Pretty good for only 15 psi i think.

Current turbo is a 19c td05h 15* clip.
Quote from: funkyp
Not bad at all! fix that 60 and youve got yourself a mid 13. Might even bump the timing up a deg or 2[/quote
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:21:00 PM
Well i am getting the new set up dialed in. Forged bottom end now and bigger injectors (1050 /1800) . Thought i would try the clipped 19c again. Back pressure is still sky high.  . Running 80% e85, 20% 93. Primary is still to small.

Peak average air flow was a little higher than the 297 dyno. Air temp and humidity a little higher than when i ran the 13.1 on the old set up. The 297 dyno was in better air, uncorreted power was 300.

 The 8-1 pistons woke up the the 19c a little, but there is still more lag after the shifts than the 18g.

Ran my best 1/8 and 1/4 mph in the heat, but missed bettering my best et.. A little wheel spin and hop on the 13.2 run. The car should go faster with the 18g but i am out of fuel pump. It  started to fall behind at about 22 psi.

I took the base pressure on the stock regulator to 46-47 psi to compensate for the primary not flowing enought fuel at low duty cycles. It does pretty good , but does not raise the pressure at a 1-1 ratio at these boost levels.

I really need to get a real turbo for this car.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02500.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/E85FuelPresssureDrop.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/TBP.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:23:11 PM
Quote from: funkyp
First thing I noticed was 2 seconds between shift and being back at full boost, each time.
The 19c takes at least a 1/2 second longer to re spool after shifts than the 18g. Maybe i should try not lifting to shift.  :lol:
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:37:07 PM
The data logs were showing the fuel pressure dropping at high load.

It looks like the walbro 255 is going to fix the fuel pressure problem. I only tested it to 22 psi. A leaking radiator drain plug and work keep me from the track.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:38:11 PM
The Walbo GS392 is maintaining about 68 psi with a 48 psi base pressure.  8)  24 psi boost. I had about a 12 psi drop off in fuel pressure with the old pump.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/WalboGS392fuelpump.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:40:13 PM
Sep 10 2011

Last year i thought it was odd that i had to run more positive afc correction than the math predicted with the 850 delphi at idle and cruze.

When i stepped up to a 1050 primary for my e85 project and it barely delivered more fuel at cruze and idle i thought what the frack?

So i picked up a used  versafuler  :idea:    http://www.acceleronics.com/versafueler.htm and hit pay dirt. Went from plus 50 and still to lean on the afc, to 0 and just right. Seems the stock ecu does not like after market injectors.  :wink: The fuel delivery is much more linear now, instead of progressively getting richer as the injector duty cycle increased.

Testing is still preliminary, i got side tracked by a couple of hurricanes, but i think the e85 project is finally going to bear some juicy fruit.

I can run up to 8 injectors with this gadget.  8)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:44:16 PM
Quote from: funkyp
maft / safc / hks fcon / versa fueler / Logger Boxes

When are you just gonna get a P&P from Scott?? SOOOOO much better and capable of more.

You forgot the ebc LOL. Items currently on the car are.

2g mas, neo afc, versafuler, logger boxes and ebc.

Edit 11-2012. What i am doing would not be possable with out the injector driver box.  I am convinced one would do wonders for a aftermarket stock size injector car.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 10, 2012, 07:48:47 PM
Quote from: funkyp
An MS1X Unit from Scott will log/boost control/eliminate MAS/full fuel and timing control/rev limiters/fan control....etc all for around $700

If you stay tbi you can convert to simultaneous injection and stop worrying about proper injector ratios bla bla bla.

i see no reason not to.

I think out side the box. Had i listened to the old sticks in the mud, my car would still be bucking, cutting and sputtering. Or in need of a good tune.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:12:33 PM
Oct 8 2011

I switched back to the 18g. This time with a 15* clipped 05h turbine vs the 05 that was in when i dynoed 297/403.

Ran a 13.22 @ 107.29  1.957  60', Just a tick off my second best time. Backed it up with a 13.32. Could not lunuch for crap all day.

The 18g really wants to go, but i am getting really choppy boost with the ebc. I thought it would smooth out when i turned it up but it did not.

Going to try my other ebc and or my mbc's  Dyno day coming up the Oct 22.

Ran a 8.406  1/8 at 86.7 last week. We could only run 1/8 mile due to wet track in the shut down area.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:14:43 PM
An example of the boost control issues and how it effects the air flow - injector duty cycle and afr.
 
MBC vs Greddy Profec B spec 2 EBC

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/MBCvsEBCBoost.jpg)

Same overlay showing how the choppy boost effects the injector duty cycle.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/MBCVSEBCInjectoorDutyCycle.jpg)

My Mbc is smooth as silk, but tails off badly.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/MBCClipped18g.jpg)

Switched to a Gizzmo Ebc today. Almost as smooth as the mbc. No inital spike problem, but tails off almost as bad as the mbc.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:16:09 PM
Here's what happens when the wastegate actuator arm falls off.

td05h 18g 15* clip.  3rd gear 25 psi @ 4300. Looks like the waste gate flows really well. I am going to try shortening the arm so it does not open as far.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Wastegateopens.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:17:58 PM
I figured i needed a little more fuel so i replaced the 1800 secondary with a 2000. Unexpectedly the fuel delivery is more linear past 85% duty cycle. I tested my fuel and it was dead on 85% ethanol.

I have been working with 2 stage mbc controlled by a rpm switch. Got it dialed in on the 4th run of the day, and ripped off a 12.78 @ 112.65


(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02652.jpg)

The ideal was to bring the second stage in about the time the initial boost spike was about to drop.

This screen shot is labeled wrong. It should say dotted line is 14.40 @ 105

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/1278boostvs144.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/1278boost1-2shift.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:21:48 PM
I could never understand why people swore up and down that the secondary kicks on around 2800-3000 rpm, when the logs show the transition  taking place anywhere from off idle to about 2500 rpm.

So what is really happening when these car sputter around 3000 rpms?  One day it hit me, That's where the cars abandon 02 correction and drops out of closed loop and goes rich.

If there is a weak ignition problem or mods or other problems that make the car go richer than the ignitions can handle  it first shows up here.

It is all about the airflow. The secondary kicks in about 390 HZ and off at about 290. My cars typically drops out of closed loop between 700-900 hz.  When these car are tuned for up sized injectors this will raise the typical rpm ranges these air flow levels are reached, as the ecu only sees the modified airflow signal. Tramping on the gas hard will of course take the car full rich before these air flow points.

To maintain a steady increase in airflow to catch this on a log, I actually had to back off the throttle a little so the airflow would not increase to rapidly.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Closedtoopenloop.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:25:16 PM
Quote from: funkyp
Thats pretty awesome. It would make more sense to have the fuel delivery dependent on airflow as apposed to rpm.  Otherwise the Sec would kick on every time you downshift.

Thats awesome. I give you tons of crap for staying with that system, but you sure do find some cool stuff!  :lol:
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:28:30 PM
One mystery of the stock ecu is how often does the stock injection system fire? A dsm multi port car fires each injector once per combustion event. Or one of the injectors fire every half revolution.

Now the stock ecu has one injector doing the job of 4 till the secondary kicks in and than 2 do the job of 4. Maybe the primary fires every half revolution till the secondary comes on, than it might change to one or the other every half revolution? Or stay the same?

My logger can not measure the pulse width itself. It compares the on time to the off time to figure duty cycle, so it would not know if the pules per revolution changes.

Now here is the problem. At about 1350- 1400 hz of air flow the stock ecu does something that effects the afr, that my logger does not pick up. the logger actually shows a drop in duty cycle, but with the bigger injectors the afr goes rich. My best guess is that the ecu switches from 4 to 2 pules per injector. But do not have the equipment or smarts to prove it.

This problem first reared it ugly head when i tried to run a maft. It was not really the maft fault, but the ecu clearly liked the 2 g mas signal better.

The problem resurfaced when I up sized the injectors to run e85 and also appeared at the point where the ecu drops out of closed loop.

So basically i think it is a dead time issue with the big injectors. Less squirts per revolution would mean less dead time which would mean more fuel injected at a given duty cycle.

When I switched to the versafueler peak and hold injector driver the problem went away and the fuel delivery became linear instead of getting progressively richer as the airflow and or boost increased. Before the verasfueler I had to re tune the car to run different boost levels. This also meant if the car was tuned for 20 psi at wide open throttle it would run leaner at say 10-15 psi at part throttle.

By the way if you guys down load logworks from the innovate site, i could host the logs on their forum for guys to view.

Near stock 87 non ic . Stock Mitsu injectors. The afr held steady on later test.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/WCDutyCycle.jpg)

Same car with an afr trace
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Changeat1350Hz.jpg)


A maft log 850/1400 injectors from my modified car. In this log tuning is taking place after the 1350hz line. The traces in the middle that split at the line are untuned airflow (top) and tuned airflow (bottom).

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/anotherdip.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:38:43 PM
The choppy boost problems i mentioned a little bit ago was compressor surge induced by the ebc. I had really bad surge problems with the clipped 05h 18g at part throttle. That i could hear, but i did not initaly realize it was happening at wot at well. The fix at the time was the  two stage mbc controlled by an rpm switch. The clip freed up some power, but i do not recomend it do to the sever compressor surge problems i had. I saw a little of the choppy boost issues using an ebc with a 19c 05h 15* clipped turbo as well. (Most all 19c bolt on turbo had the clip standard)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:41:00 PM
March 30 2012

I have been working on some changes for 2012

Mhi TD06 standard turbine in a turbo shop machined 05h sq housing. Replacing the surge prone clipped 05h

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02775.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02772.jpg)

New 9" Aem dry flow filter. Replacing a dirty 6" unknown brand.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02792.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02794.jpg)

Shiny 2.25 Intercooling piping and 4" intercooler. Replacing a mix of stock and tep piping and tep spearco intercooler.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02796.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:44:39 PM
A gm 3" besides the mitsu 2g mas. In terms of flow area, i think the 2g has the edge.

Filter end

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02785.jpg)

Turbo end. The 2g is oval, so a 4 x 3 reducer is required.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02791.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 17, 2012, 08:47:45 PM
Quote from: funkyp
Nice!

What made you decide to put the MAF on the intake side? Ease? I know alot of people like to put it after the BOV unless you recirculate it.
Just curious.

A mitsu mas will not work in blow thru. A gm does not work right in blow thru either, but many put up with the less accurate metering so they can vent the bov and not deal with the consequences of the blown off air being metered.
 
The next goal is to put a recirculating bov on my car. Between the heaver turbine and larger volume in the bigger piping there is some serious amounts of air blown off. Which causes big problems if i lift a little at part throttle.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:13:20 PM
I have been fighting boost control issues. The problem is the 06 18g makes to much boost to soon when i try and up the boost with a controller. I think i turned the corner  on it though. I figured out how to use my rpm switch and a second solenoid so my prefect b does not see boost in the sense line till the switch trips.

I have a avc r here to try, but i get a head ache every time i read the instructions.  :?

The 06 will surge like the clipped o5h if i bring the boost in to soon. It's not as prone to happen and happens at about 20psi vs 17 at part throttle.

I might dyno this week. I really need to pull about 10 psi of fuel pressure out thin air or i will probably run short of fuel. I have a trick up my sleeve that might give me another 2 or 3 psi of fuel pressure.   :wink:  I need to bit the bullet and get a good aftermarket regulator.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:15:19 PM
Quote from: funkyp

What fuel filter setup are you using?
Have you considered adding a 2nd pump since you are E85?

Stock filters and lines. Stock regulator modified for 48 psi base. Pump is a wally 255.

I think it is primary a regulator problem. But fixing that may revel yet another underlying problem.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:22:17 PM
Installed another gadget. Magna fuel regulator.

 I have a sensor measuring boost at the normal regulator boost reference port as well as another one to install on the compressor discharge side.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02927.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02929.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:24:11 PM
The new regulator confirmed my suspicions the wally 255 can't feed my injectors at 70+ psi of fuel pressure. I do have another wally, but will probably end up with a 044 pump.

The 2 gay gee guy's had to add a relay and heaver wires to get there 044's to keep up. So i am going to try that first.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:27:51 PM
I was seeing 12.5 volts at the pump at idle with the stock wiring. Amp draw was 6 at 48 psi base, 8.5 under boost. The wally is rated at 9 amps max . A Bosch 044 will draw 14 amps at full load.

The stock pump feed wire is about 14 ga and the ground on the car side of the plug about 16 ga.

I installed a circuit breaker at the battery and ran 10 ga to the relay.  Up graded the ground side to 14 ga, Should have bought more 10 ga.

It looks like the extra voltage will be good for a couple more psi under boost and will definitely be needed with a 044 pump.

The little black resistor is long gone.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/001.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:29:31 PM
Quote from: funkyp
nice! 10ga is the way to go. that stock harness passes through like 3 or 4 connections on the way back. a single power wire from the battery fixes that. Battery in the boot makes it a bit easier and aids in relocating weight.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:30:52 PM
Top two lines are boost, bottom two fuel pressure. Solid lines the rewired pump vs dotted lines for the old set up. If you can read whats in the boxes you will see i picked up about 4-7 psi of fuel pressure.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Fuelpumprewire.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:32:36 PM
Quote from: funkyp
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/9/9/6/1/5/9/webimg/551780996_o.jpg)

I should log fuel pressure. But thinkin an aeromotive 340 is in my future....

Great work John
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:34:33 PM
Quote from: funkyp
What did your AFR do in response.... How far off did it get?

Well it's richer.  I calculated i should see about 6% to 8% more fuel flow. It looks like i have a little head room to take the base up a little.

http://www.gordonengland.co.uk/conversion/flowrate.htm

My injectors flow 183 lph @ 100% duty cycle. Maybe 165 @ 90% which is about where i loose control of the afr and it jumps rich. The pumps rated for about 200 lph at 80 psi, 208 at 75 psi - friction loses.

I am still only seeing about 45 psi of fuel pressure above the pre throttle body pressure.

There are 3 different pressure sensors involved and i really need to check the calibration on them. I know the fuel pressure sensor heat soaks on a hot restart. And that makes it read low till the fuel cools it off.

It just dawned on me that under hood temp variation are probably effecting the other two pressure sensors as well.

Phil what pump do you have now? I was looking at the aeromotive 340 they do list a inline model? But every where else they talk off it being a in tank pump? I do not want to deal with a in tank pump.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 18, 2012, 07:37:16 PM

Here is a search i did on dsm tunners.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/search.php?searchid=12009117


Quote from: funkyp
Ive been runnin a single wally at 50psi base.

Yeah, both the Walbro 400 and Aero 340 are intank. I have another tank here and was just going to build an intank setup. Its either that or a simpler addition of another 255 parallel.  I have a feeling that 2 external wally's are going to drive me nuts. The 340 isnt badly priced and if I can submerge it, the noise should be completely tolerable.

My walbro has been badass for.......6yrs now haha. But with the new setup, It has no chance.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 05:48:29 PM
Aug 2012

The car lost power mid pull one day. I initially suspected exhaust since it had been rattling for no apparent reason. The cat passed the initial inspection. A compression test showed #3 down about 10-15 psi. A leak down test showed the #3 exhaust valve was leaking. So i replaced the os ss valve head with a ported stock size ss valve head.  While it was apart i mocked up some stuff i have laying around. A gt35 on a chad t3 header.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/001-1.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/002.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/003.jpg)

For some reason i thought this would be high enough to use the the timing cover drain.  :(  So where on the pan is the best spot for the drain?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 05:51:23 PM
Quote from: funkyp
Look at that big ol huffer! You already grow tired of 350whp tbi!?!? 


Heres where I put them

(http://sqperformance.forumcity.com/files/d503_196.jpg)

Just be mindful of the PS box and oil filter assy.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 05:54:49 PM
I also have this 8cm syclone turbine housing and a stock manifold with a t3 flange welded on.

The stock manifold would put the gt35 to far forward and interfere with the ovc pipes and leave little room for the intake pipe. It would be nice to get rid of that big mas.  I could use the room.


(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/001-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 06:01:02 PM
Quote from: funkyp
That's a full syty 17c correct? If so that'd be a nice upgrade for some of those td05 peeps.
Thinking about speed density I see..... 8)
Yes the 05 and 05h turbine chokes these car. The 06 turbine really woke my car up.

Yes that is a syclone tdo6 turbine housing. I just bought the housing a while back.  It Would be interesting to see what it does for the 18g. And it would give me the option of going to a tdo6h turbine. But i have to many turbos, i hate to put more money in a mits turbo.

 I been having trouble finding a down pipe flange for it. I think i found a source, but i better call and make sure first. It is a 2.5 opening with a smaller bolt center. So 3" of the turbo would not be possible with out a reducer.

Speed density gives me a major headache  :(
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 06:07:00 PM
The car slowed down and lost boost about a month ago. I initially suspected exhaust be cause it had been rattling. But the cat looked good from the inlet side and when i had the exhaust off the car i shook it every which way and the only rattle was a loose  cat heat shild.

Compression and leak down reveled a bad exhaust valve, so i figured that was the problem and put on the ported head. Put it back together and it was even slower.  :(   

I hooked my turbine inlet pressure sensor back up and it was looking abnormal high.  I than moved the press tap to the stock o2 sensor location. And found

20 psi of post turbo exhaust back pressure. WTF
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 06:10:52 PM
Well it was the cat.  There is a big chunk rattling around in the back half of the cat.

So i took the car out open down pipe. Oh my god.  :) I was running out of injector at only 5000 rpm. Pretty obnoxious.   ;)

Any was the post turbo back pressure open down pipe is  .8 psi at 24 psi boost vs 20 at 18 psi. I wish i new what it was before the cat died.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 06:12:52 PM
I gutted the remains of the cat and put the exhaust back on. Post turbo back pressure was peaking in the 6.x psi range.

I put on a different exhaust with a loud bullet type muffler.  Post turbo back pressure dropped to 2.2 psi. It is a little loud though.   ;D

I have some serious boost creep going on now.  It will go to about 22-23 just on the spring.

But she is making some power  8) , and the cool fall weather is here. i hope to hit the track and dyno again soon.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Exhaustcomparison.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 06:21:15 PM
Quote from: funkyp
so whatturbo are you running?
Same one, a 18g tdo6 in a machined out quest turbine housing. I did pick up a down pipe flange for the syclone exhaust housing. Since i need more waste gate flow now, i may work in that direction.

The 18g compressor is pretty much maxed out as are the injectors. Even if i had more turbo, the injectors can not support more on e85. There is all ways race gas. But than i would lose the charge air cooling effect of the e85.

I guess i could take the base pressure up a little more.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 06:23:55 PM
Quote from: funkyp
whats current base?
That is a good question. I see 52 on cold start up, 48 fully warmed up and moving and as low as 40 on a hot restart after sitting for at least 5 minutes. i know the 40 is bogus from sensor heat soak. It is on the fuel rail right up near the hood insulation. The sensor is only temp compensated to about 130 degrees.

But is the 48 bogus as well? I need to move the sensor down on the regulator which i mounted low to get it away from the heat. Than i have to wonder is heat effecting the gm 3 bar map sensor which is also high on the fire wall, and my other sensor i use for back pressure and pre throttle body pressure ect.

I have seen as much as 78 psi of fuel pressure under boost.
Quote from: funkyp
Most injectors are good for up to 100psi total, so that should give you room to play with base pressure.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 06:58:27 PM
Sep 18 2012

I went to a Subie vs Evo race at Englishtown. Met up with SilverBullet with his nice 4g swap car. There was also a nice borinquen mpi quest there. The air and prep was not so hot. And my plug wires picked that day to give up under full boost. Neither car performed to it's potential, but the fans loved seeing them any way.

I run a mallory 6al. It made a huge difference, but it does fry the cheep stock plug wires i run in a year or so. It takes a lot to light off fuel at 20 plus psi. E85 even more so.

When a mildly modded quest with a turbo upgrade is sputtering, stuttering or hesitating shortly after hitting full boost. Odds are it is inadequate ignition power, to rich or a combination of the two.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 07:03:41 PM
Quote from: funkyp
Im ready for an 11sec TBi car!!! When you gonna make it happen???

It's not going to happen.  a 11 second car with a 13 sec driver will always yield 12 sec time slips. I could see a 12.4 out of it with a cool dry tail wind on a perfect run.

I haven't been to the track much this year and i am rusty. I was going to test and tune last sat, but went fri night instead. My shifts were horrible.Tired legs at the end off the day.  The air seemed good when i left the house, but 40 miles to the south at the track, not so good. Saturdays air was perfect.  :(

The new set up (head and exhaust change) gives up a little power on the re spool after shifts. It did seem to lunch better with the torque loss.

I never got the boost past 22, i haven't figured out the boost control on the new set up. Ran 13.1 and 13.3 @ 107. I really need to be trapping 110-112.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 07:06:16 PM
This one might actually get installed.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/001-4.jpg)

The bracket could use a little tweaking and some changes for more stiffness.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/004.jpg)

Two differences here. The outlet is shorter which may be a problem getting a good clamp on the hose since the hose does not line up at the right angle. and the actuator port on the old housing was at a point in the volute that saw less pressure. The extra pressure will effect the boost control. But boost control will need to be sorted out again any way.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/006-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 07:07:14 PM
I do not think i ever posted these from back in may.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/001-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 07:09:38 PM
Quote from: funkyp
those 60fts are everything. Do you spin any when leaving? Or are you just focusing on slipping the clutch?
What turbo is that??? Is that an FP cover?
Kinugawa 20g. Apparently 3" inlet translates to 3 3/16 in Chinese. Fortunately i had a stretched out coupling.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kinugawa-Mitsubishi-3-Turbo-Compressor-Housing-Wheel-TD05-TD06-20G-/150912389453?hash=item232314514d&item=150912389453&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

So far i like it. With the boost controller off it hits 26 psi and drops to 24.5 at 5500. Hopefully when i bring the boost control in it will hit 26 quicker with out spiking higher. I only made 2 pulls to 5500 in thrid. I did get to the track hoping to play with the boost controller, but it was late and busy so i did not buy a tech card. I did get to see a quest run 10.65 @ 133.  :wink: 2 gay gee or not, Serpents car was moving.  :)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 07:14:14 PM
So since the spring 2012 dyno i have 7 psi more fuel pressure (54 psi base) and 5% more injector cc (swaped the 1050 primary for a 1200), And i am still maxing them out.  8) . I wish i could get a bigger secondary. Hopefully the dyno day will work out good.
Quote from: notstock88
VERY good work.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 07:16:22 PM
Oct 29 2012

Last Dyno

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02799.jpg)

New Dyno Boost peaked at 27.7 and tailed of to 26.5

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/001-001.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 07:21:03 PM
11 24 2012

Well everything is copied over from the old fourm. I did add a little here and there and edit some stuff out.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2012, 07:43:42 PM
I got to the track a week ago. She is trapping like a supra.  :) Low 50's air temp.  Now if i could just nail the 60' and the 1-2 shift. I only made these 4 runs. Whopped a new Camaro and a turbo honda. 

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03127.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on November 26, 2012, 03:49:37 PM
yeah, getting your 60ft together makes all the difference in the world. You need to try being more aggressive.

Im gonna give you moderator privileges aswell.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on December 22, 2012, 08:18:49 PM
Slim, sexy, curvy. 20g size. Picked this up at a discount price.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Turbo%20Pictures/DSC03147.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Turbo%20Pictures/DSC03150.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Turbo%20Pictures/DSC03143.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Turbo%20Pictures/DSC03144.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Turbo%20Pictures/DSC03145.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Turbo%20Pictures/DSC03146.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on December 22, 2012, 10:46:48 PM
what?? hahahaha

billet wheels do look nice though....
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on December 23, 2012, 06:19:22 AM
And the top of the box mentions. Durability, Performance and Brand Image. LOL.

 Hopfully there was some foucus on the Durability Performance.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on December 23, 2012, 09:53:53 AM
You have the highest HP 20G btw. lol  Stompin some MPI ass! No wonder everyone is doin a swap hahaha
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on February 02, 2013, 08:35:48 PM
Well i reprogrammed the data logger to measure more airflow and swapped out the 50psi back pressure sensor for a 100 psi one.

Airflow topped out at 2500hz, about what i expected. Back pressure maxed out at 60 psi @ 25 in the manifold.

I finally got motivated to slap on the billet compressor. Unfortunately the snow and salt flew before i finished. Should have worked on it during the week! Now i have to wait for another deluge to wash the salt from the roads.

An evo made 600 with a 7 blade kts 20g compressor recently. (tdo6h 14cm hot side).

Sure is sexy.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03165_zps3990bf42.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03181_zps9f40fb25.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on February 25, 2013, 06:56:08 PM
Well i had it out a couple of times with the new compressor. It is a little peppier at low rpm and a tad more power up top. Makes 2 more psi on the spring, 27 vs 25. Maxing the injector's out again. I need to play with the boost controller to see if i can get it to ramp up a little quicker.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on February 25, 2013, 09:47:32 PM
So whats next for fuel?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on February 26, 2013, 06:29:04 PM
More injectors and a stand alone is the best answer.

 A oem primary in the ovc pipe to supplement the secondary would get the job done at wide open throttle. I just always felt that option was a fire hazard. I did also find a bigger injector that might work as a secondary if the fitment is compatible.

I will probably just let the fuel side alone for now and work on getting the slycone t3 exhaust housing fitted up and maybe the recirculated bov i have been wanted to do for a while.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on February 26, 2013, 10:27:23 PM
Hey man! Whatever you do, do recirculate it into the exhaust...... ;D
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on March 30, 2013, 09:32:32 PM
Did a little work today with the sy ty 8cm t3 housing. Option A puts the turbo up and out about 1.5 inch and would require reworking a little more stuff than option B.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03224_zpsc2f98353.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03226_zpsd83fcdf2.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03221_zps34691f3f.jpg)


Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on March 30, 2013, 09:44:12 PM
I am going to go with option B. This is a tep manifold i acquired last summer. When i last looked at this option, i was trying to center the t3 flange. That was a mistake. Tep put it down about 1/2 " and back a tad. That gives just a little more needed clearance and it lines up better with the modified manifold opening.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03227_zps682f5e70.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03228_zps9733a473.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03229_zps27e15cf0.jpg)

My ghetto fab actuator bracket. Kawgual does make an adjustable actuator to bolt to this cover for a $100

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03231_zpsab975e4f.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03232_zpse9899c03.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03233_zps446d3639.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03234_zps20bcd4fd.jpg)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on March 30, 2013, 09:58:57 PM
And i fooled with the big dog a little bit. It fits nice with the 2.5" spacer adapter. And the adapter gets it up high enough i should be able to use the stock drain port on the cover. The intake pipe would be pretty tight and the power steering reservoir would have to move.

The big dog is staying on the porch till i get a few more injectors. LOL

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03235_zps0423e0f7.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03236_zps632888b0.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03237_zps206b0335.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on March 31, 2013, 11:05:37 AM
goin syty 20G? Thats awesome! Do you thing the housing swap will yield much more power? Curious why you went this route over the previous.

I actually prefer option A for the extra space between the turbo and cyl head. But then Im usually going from scratch instead of utilizing existing parts.

Cant wait to see a 400whp TBi car!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on March 31, 2013, 04:20:14 PM
Well the star quest waste gate is not cutting it any more. Boost creeps to 25-27 psi. Hopefully the sy/ty should have a better flowing waste gate  and flow a little more at top end for more power and . But i might cancel that out with a quieter muffler.

I like it closer to the head so i can hopefully utilize more of my exiting parts, and have room for a heat shield and power steering reservoir. The big dog turbos like phil runs definitely need the spacer.

I could probably do 400 now if i threw enough boost at it to burn off the extra fuel the injectors dump past 90% duty cycle. It is not like i have not done that before. LOL. if i creep up on it when the injectors start to dump it pulls the afr down around 11.0 and i get some misfire. I am thinking of trying an hvc2 coil. It takes more fire power to light of the e85.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on March 31, 2013, 05:27:59 PM
any idea what size the wastegate is on the syty compared to stock? The one I put on the HX35 came from an EVO 16g and is like 32mm. Stock HX35w wastegate is only 28mm.

 just a thought
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on March 31, 2013, 05:39:47 PM
Can't really tell, probably bigger but not much. I thought they had the td05 to t3 2.5" bolt on spacer adapter with a waste gate flange. So much crap on ebay to sort through.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on March 31, 2013, 05:41:54 PM
http://www.sqperformance.com/forum/index.php?topic=11.0

scroll to the bottom.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on March 31, 2013, 07:10:22 PM
Not a very good picture of it. But probably a better exhaust housing choice in terms of waste gate flow. No adapter needed and you can do a divorced waste gate path. I have read a t3 is only 9% bigger than the dsm flange. Our bolt pattern is the same but the hole is smaller. The manifold hole ends up being smaller than the flange either way, using a ground out stock manifold. But i already had the sy/ty.  http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=FPTH8CM&Category_Code=DSM-Exhaust

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 01, 2013, 06:46:50 PM
The turbo will be about 1/8" lower and 3/8" closer to the engine. Had to mash the heat shield a little. I might put another flange in there to space it out. Still debating on that. The air pipes will fit better than ever.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03250_zpsaa026829.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03249_zps6a7709a8.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03240_zps11bf14d9.jpg)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 01, 2013, 06:56:05 PM
This is a sy/ty down pipe flange i bought from Hahn Race craft. I can't really come off of that in 3" with out a  reverse reducer

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03253_zps271e556a.jpg)

Starquest Gasket

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03254_zps0eefcf8a.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03257_zps7affd9a6.jpg)

This v band adapter was for a Greddy T3, i modified and it would probably work ok. kinugawa sells the correct one now.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03255_zpsaa1e4c69.jpg)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03258_zps179a6285.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 11, 2013, 06:35:10 PM
Very stealthy.  Just a few little bolt ons. LOL

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03264_zpsff8e004d.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/T3%20Turbo/DSC03264_zpsff8e004d.jpg.html)
I probably would have spaced the turbo out a 1/2 inch with a nother t3 flange if i had the parts on hand to do it.

 The sq waste gate actuator does not have enough travel to fully open the gate. But is working pretty well for now

I tweaked this heat shield a little with some buss saw cuts.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/T3%20Turbo/DSC03260_zps9f539d2d.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/T3%20Turbo/DSC03260_zps9f539d2d.jpg.html)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 11, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
wow, thats awesome
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 27, 2013, 06:35:42 PM
I thought i needed a little more ignition power. The car likes it. Granted with a better tuning system i probally could have got buy with out it.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2013/DSC03292_zps7a67b42b.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/2013/DSC03292_zps7a67b42b.jpg.html)

Last run was 29 psi tailing off to 28 psi. Injectors were maxed out.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03289_zpsc8be577a.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03289_zpsc8be577a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 27, 2013, 10:56:35 PM
I gotta say, I never........my lord....speechless.. :o


bowing my head sir...bowing my head....
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: non-intercooled flatty on April 28, 2013, 09:07:13 AM
Very nice!  What are the time/date stamps from 2007?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 28, 2013, 09:33:50 AM
Very nice!  What are the time/date stamps from 2007?
Hum? The date was correct on my spring 2012 dyno, and wrong on the fall 2012 dyno.  I will have to get on them about that. At one point years ago he did say the dyno computer was not connected to the net.

2012 dyno's
Oct 29 2012

Last Dyno

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02799.jpg)

New Dyno Boost peaked at 27.7 and tailed of to 26.5

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/001-001.jpg)

Spring 2013

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03289_zpsc8be577a.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03289_zpsc8be577a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 28, 2013, 02:15:26 PM
Geez I want to see this car with a standalone!  8)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 28, 2013, 03:25:52 PM
Geez I want to see this car with a standalone!  8)
It's time.  ;)

It would be neat to swap on a magna, and see how much or little it picks up.

I bid on a eip intake a bit ago, but it got away.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 28, 2013, 05:50:44 PM
What you have achieved with your setup is so far beyond what everyone else thought was possible that they never even considered it. 400whp TBi / stock ECU, ....unimaginable. Youve raised the bar so high. Not just for the TBi guys.  8)

Great job man!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 28, 2013, 06:29:00 PM
What you have achieved with your setup is so far beyond what everyone else thought was possible that they never even considered it. 400whp TBi / stock ECU, ....unimaginable. You've raised the bar so high. Not just for the TBi guys.  8)

Great job man!
No one ever tried. They were alway told this or that can't work by people who never tried. Lots of old stick in the mud normally aspirated carb mechanics still around to this day spouting 15 year old bull chit. The equipment i use was available 10 years ago, maybe sooner to some degree.  E85 and big injectors not so much. I  have taken this way beyond what was reasonable to expect. But it could be applied on a smaller scale by a lot more people.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 29, 2013, 12:41:25 PM
Amazing how drastically everything improved once you went to the 06 wheel.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 29, 2013, 04:38:12 PM
Yes, the 05h was done at 300. The standard 06 is really considered an obsolete turbine by the shops, kinda like the 05. Today's performance turbos almost always use one of the 06h variants or the sl2 style turbines.

On a technical note.

The sy/ty 8cm housing lowered turbine inlet pressure about 5 psi. Back pressure peaked at 62 on the 23 psi pull and 79 on the 29 psi pull.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 29, 2013, 05:31:31 PM
Completely forgot you went to a syty housing.

does sl2 actually flow better? I thought it was smaller but im sure the design is much improved.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 29, 2013, 06:48:07 PM
Does sl2 actually flow better? I thought it was smaller but i'm sure the design is much improved.
That is a good  question. I have asked it several times and few will answer it. The guy from map performance said the 06 flows better. But when people talk about 06's, the are primary talking about 06h 12 and 11 blade turbine's. Like i said the 06 is seldom used in off the shelf performance builds. So even though i said 06 standard, the guy from map may have heard 06h.

The sL2 is  smaller and has 11 blades vs 12. I have heard it said you can run it in a 06 standard housing. It will just act like it has some degree of clip.

Good luck getting a shop that uses a sl2 to admit it is the same one that we can buy from Taiwan. Or more likely that they are different but comes out of the same factories or one down the street.





Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 29, 2013, 07:04:45 PM
I was in Blouch turbo last week dropping off my sq 06 housing for waste gate porting. He said he could not do much with it and thinks a 5* clip would help with the creep more. Not keen on the clip ideal, but i had the waste gate ported and it looks good. Much nicer work than i have the patience to do.

So i mention sl2, and get the it is Taiwan carp, crap flow ect. I say but you use a 11 blade turbine?, can i buy one off yours?. Dude comes back with a 12 blade and 11 blade mhi turbines. So there 11 blade is actually a 06h mhi 11 blade. I did not know mhi made an 11 blade 06h.

So he tries to set it in my housing, and it does not fit. I said 06 standard, he heard 06h.  :)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 14, 2013, 10:46:36 PM
The 1200 primary injector was not working out, so i went back to a 1050 Delphi primary. Air temp changes seemed to be some what responsible for moving  the Cruise and idle tune all over the place.

I wired the air temp sensor in the airflow meter to my logger.  Intake air temp is constianly 20-25* over ambient temp even at 50 mph and goes still higher in city traffic. I have the popular hot air intake open air filter in the engine bay. Basically the ecu leans the car out as the intake air temp rises.

The only time i saw a rapid change in the temp was when i did a full throttle pull. The temp dropped 10* as the turbo spooled and than gained it back at the end of the pull. As stated this is the mitsu sensor in the mas.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 14, 2013, 11:05:53 PM
I had the stock turbine housing waste gate ported by Blouch. The inlet was already ported. but they worked it some more to help the exhaust make the turn.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03338_zpsd0bc2e32.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03338_zpsd0bc2e32.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03337_zpsc795f1d6.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03337_zpsc795f1d6.jpg.html)

I was tired of the noise of the loud strait thru muffler, so the quite exhaust with  the gutted cat went on at the same time. Time for the state inspection anyway.

Car was switched from the e85 / ms109 blend to strait e85 as well This and the injector change will limit peak power to about 360 weather permitting. The purpose of the ms109 was to extend the hp potential of the injectors (more btu per gal). Ms 109 is an unleaded fuel with mtbe. Mtbe is said to be being used in the e85 race fuels being brought to market by the race fuel companies.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 14, 2013, 11:10:20 PM
-Mods at the time of the 401 hp Dyno pull.

--Pistons--Wiseco 8-1

--Turbo--Stock manifold with welded on T3 flange. Sy/ty 8cm turbine housing. Mitsu td06 turbine. Kingawa surge ported compressor cover. KTS billet 20g 6+6 blade compressor. 3" exhaust, strait through bullet muffler. 29psi tailing off to 28

--Boost control--Internal gate. Electronic

--Engine Management--2g 609 maf,  Apexi Neo afc, Versafuler peak and hold injector driver box, fiveomotorsports 1200 primary, 2000 secondary. Innovate data logger. Magnafuel regulator, 54 psi base. Wallbo 255 external pump power by 10gauge wire via a relay.

--Camshaft--Tep HR70. Degreed. About 5* advanced.

--Fuel Used--E90 with about 10% Ms109 blended in.

--Manifold-- Tbi. Lowershores 52mm tb and intake.

--Head--M28. Si stock size ss valves, ported, Schneider springs, Ti locks and retainers.

--Block--Knife edge crank and crank scraper.

--Innercooler and piping--KDM 4" and 2.25 pipes. Home built ahp with maf baffel.

--Ignition--Mallory 6al, Msd Hvc2 coil, Ngk 7031 plugs. Stock timing.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 15, 2013, 11:24:30 AM
Ive heard good about the MS109. Why not use pump gas and Meth? Your HP peak on 2 inj would go way up. Then again you can have alot of fun with 360.

As for exhaust, why not do a cutout so that when your just cruising its quieter? I also see your intake pipe is steel?? Those hold alot of heat. Diesel guys did testing and made best power and lower temps with an all rubber/silicone intake. Considering where your sensor is, thats prollynot the problem.

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 15, 2013, 12:09:09 PM
nevermind, i was thinking of the shell URT unleaded race fuel
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 15, 2013, 12:27:19 PM
Motorsports 109 http://www.vpracingfuels.com/motoroadracing.html
I might add that the e85 i was buying last fall was testing at 92%. In the spring it was down to about 88%
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 16, 2013, 09:53:48 AM
I really expected the intake air temp to drop to maybe 10* over amdiant in just 2 or 3 miles over 30 mph. But apparently these hot air intakes work really well at sucking in hot air.  :(

I suspect the temp rise after the initial drop on a full throttle pull is the radiant heat coming of the turbo, manifold and down pipe at full boost.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 16, 2013, 10:22:03 AM
Yeah Ive toyed with the idea of and on to build a box around the filter but have no need for it with the meth injection.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 20, 2013, 04:40:56 PM
Yeah Ive toyed with the idea of and on to build a box around the filter but have no need for it with the meth injection.
Your thinking is flawed Phil. Meth or effective intercooling will not make up for the difference in air density between hot air vs cool air into the turbo intake.  The turbo will increase the density of the incoming air by whatever pressure ratio is run at. This is why compound turbo chargings works. The second turbo neither knows nor cares what pressure (density) the incoming air is. It just increases it by the pressure ratio it is run at.

So if you increase the density of the inlet air with a true cold air intake, you will get more out of it. Think the differences between winter and summer performance. Not all of the gains come from the lower ambient temperatures over the intercooler.


Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 20, 2013, 09:53:13 PM
 I am aware of the pros/cons of air density. Why else would I mention better turbo positioning to Ronnie. Less component over the manifold and aft of the radiator will increase the effectiveness of the intake charge.

You referenced temp and only temp. I replied to that. Sure grabbing from a "CAI" is beneficial, but it wont make much a difference when ambient temp is already over 100deg. You can make way more gain in efficient charge cooling over that of a couple degree advantage from a CAI. As long as you are smart about things, that is.

Didnt know I needed to get molecular about every reply I make. apologies.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 09, 2013, 08:09:26 PM
In an effort to better understand the stock injection, I wired my logger up to read the frequency of the primary injector pulses. The fsm does say the injection is synced to the air flow signal, but no mention of rpm. I had always assumed it was synced with rpm as well.

This appears not to be the case. At idle the primary fires at about 21 hz and increases with load to about 210 hz just prior to the transition to both injectors. At that point it drops to about 70 hz and rises with load to about 210 hz to the point where The air flow signal reaches about 1350 hz. At which point the injector frequency drops to about 70 hz agine and rises from there.

So and ededcated guess would be that the ecu fires the injector at 3 different pulse widths based on load and modulates the frequency of the injection to meet the fuel demands as needed.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 09, 2013, 08:16:27 PM
I guess that makes sense. Load should tell you all you need. I just wouldve figured rpm would be an accompanied variable. Good shit John!

Now, have you done anything other than retard total timing for ignition? I have always had ideas rolling around for modifying it, but just havent gotten my hands and a running stock ignition car.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 09, 2013, 08:18:47 PM
A question for you math wizzes.

If my engine is idling at 1100 rpm, a duty cycle of 5-6% and a frequency of injection of 21 hz. What is the pulse width of the injection squirt?

My logger calculates duty cycle based on, the on time verses off time, with out needing to know the rpm.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 09, 2013, 09:02:48 PM
What size injector?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 10, 2013, 05:21:32 AM
What size injector?
Current running a 1050 primary. The 1200 was more trouble than it was worth.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: non-intercooled flatty on October 10, 2013, 01:49:40 PM
2.6 ms.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 10, 2013, 05:05:55 PM
2.6 ms.
Thanks, is this the correct way to calculate it?

1 / 21 hz = .0476
.0476 x 1000 = 47.6
47.6 x .055 =  2.618   

.055 for 5.5 % duty cycle
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: non-intercooled flatty on October 12, 2013, 10:19:33 AM
Exactly.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on January 23, 2014, 11:40:14 PM
So nothin new?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on January 25, 2014, 07:35:18 PM
So nothin new?
I had the snowmobile out today.  :)

The tbi monster is back in the garage after setting out in the rain for about 2 months. It leaks pretty bad.  :(
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on January 25, 2014, 07:48:25 PM
haha, that sucks. winter sucks. Cant handle these 60F days....... ;D
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 11, 2014, 08:53:34 PM
Dyno day in two weeks. I think I am just going to run it in it's detuned street tune state and see what it does. (1050/2000 injectors on strait e85 and starquest turbine housing). That fuel set up can only support about 23 psi. I can of course lean it down and max out the injectors to run a little more boost on the dyno or track, but leaving it like that does not work on the street.

 I might try giving it a little more timing. And or a little more base pressure, but the pump can not support much more pressure.

Frankly I feel the car was quicker with the 18g compressor at this boost level.

 The waste gate porting I had done on the sq turbine housing did what I wanted it to do. Maybe a little to well, as in the heat of last summer the boost was a little slow to ramp up. I could maybe try some heavier  external springs on the waste gate actuator.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 27, 2014, 10:34:53 AM
For the 4-26-14 dyno day my goal was to see what the car could do at a streetable boost level with the current mods.

The primary difference from the 2013 dyno was going back to a 1050 primary vs 1200, the sq turbine housing vs the sy/ty 8cm t3, and strait E85 vs E85 spiked with race gas.

330 run was at 22 psi.  About the most I can run and still have control of the afr
350 run was at 24.5 psi.  Went a little rich from high injector duty cycle.
357 run was at 25.5 psi.  A boost spike from going wot at a lower rpm (2500) accounted for the higher tq on this run.

Current mods 4-21-14

 --Pistons--Wiseco 8-1

 --Turbo--Stock hot side bored for  Mitsu td06 turbine and wastegate ported. Kingawa surge ported compressor cover. KTS billet 20g 6+6 blade compressor. 3" exhaust, strait through bullet muffler.

 --Boost control--Internal gate. Electronic

 --Engine Management--2g 609 maf,  Apexi Neo afc, Versafuler peak and hold injector driver box, Delphi 1050  primary, fiveomotorsports 2000 secondary. Innovate data logger. Magnafuel regulator, 58 psi base. Wallbo 255 external pump power by 10gauge wire via a relay.

 --Camshaft--Tep HR70. Degreed. About 5* advanced.

 --Fuel Used--E85

 --Manifold-- Tbi. Lowershores 52mm tb and intake.

 --Head--M28. Si stock size ss valves, ported, Schneider springs, Ti locks and retainers.

 --Block--Knife edge crank and crank scraper.

 --Innercooler and piping--*DM 4" and 2.25 pipes. Home built ahp with maf baffel.

 --Ignition--Mallory 6al, Msd Hvc2 coil, Ngk 7031 plugs. Msd wires, Stock timing.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/SCAN0002-002_zps039c7b46.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/SCAN0002-002_zps039c7b46.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 27, 2014, 10:43:15 AM
Compared to my 18g dyno from 2012, I see little difference. The 20g did hold boost a little better at high rpm.

Compared to my 2013 20g t3 sy/ty 8 cm turbine housing dyno, the sq turbine housing seems to have moved the power band to the left about 200 rpm.  The logs from that dyno were lost in a computer crash, but I would say the sq turbine housing cost me about 15-20 hp
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 27, 2014, 03:12:50 PM
You say it cost you 15-20HP peak? What about Powerband?looks it also died off sooner.Are you still on Schneider springs?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 27, 2014, 06:07:13 PM
You say it cost you 15-20HP peak? What about Powerband?looks it also died off sooner.Are you still on Schneider springs?
Yes, not that I had fuel for more power though. But probably could have made the 350 on less boost with the t3

I figure the power came in about 200 rpm sooner and peaked about 200 rpm sooner.

Yes, schneider springs. They were new about 2 years ago.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 27, 2014, 07:25:49 PM
Here they are in the same post.

T3 8cm housing. I think the low power run was about 22-23 psi. Spring 2013

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03289_zpsc8be577a.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03289_zpsc8be577a.jpg.html)

SQ turbine housing. Spring 2014

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/SCAN0002-002_zps039c7b46.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/SCAN0002-002_zps039c7b46.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 27, 2014, 08:09:33 PM
did you log backpressure?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 28, 2014, 07:39:16 PM
did you log backpressure?

Yes,  The quote below is from after the T3 dyno. The 23 psi run was probably the first, 349 hp pull.

 On the latest dyno, back pressure peaked at 69 psi on the 350 and 357 hp pull. And 58 on the 330 pull.


The sy/ty 8cm housing lowered turbine inlet pressure about 5 psi. Back pressure peaked at 62 on the 23 psi pull and 79 on the 29 psi pull.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 29, 2014, 12:18:31 AM
Have you ever considered putting that HR70 in the trash?  :D

A LOT of overlap. Especially for the turbine housings your using.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 29, 2014, 03:05:56 AM
Have you ever considered putting that HR70 in the trash?  :D

A LOT of overlap. Especially for the turbine housings your using.
And try what next? A stock cam?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 29, 2014, 09:42:59 AM
are you hydro or mech? Do you have anything against Schneider cam?

The HR70 just doesnt seem at all like a good turbo cam. I would also never use 6610's on that setup
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 29, 2014, 05:08:09 PM
Mechanical. Do you have the specks on the hr 70?. I was under the impression it was about the same as the scnider 270 and 274 cams?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 29, 2014, 06:00:19 PM
As far as advertised duration numbers, yes its similar but the LSA is too tight.

I imagine that since you dont have the cam specs, you advanced 5deg from straight up rather than off the recommended ICL.

HR70 272/74 109ICL 26IVO 64EVO .435 Lift

 is what is on the receipt Scott posted but when I run the numbers, they seem a bit off.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 29, 2014, 07:34:34 PM
At one time I had some spec's. I could not make much sense out of them. What I attempted to do was place the intake lobe center line to the degree the stock intake lobe center line was, what ever that # was? It was basically a recommendation from Indiana's site of what to do when cam specks were not available.

The approximant 5* advance transformed cam from a pos (when previously tried on a much earlier set up), to a cam that seemed like it might actually be doing some thing positive.

I suppose I could try a stock cam, but I have little time, energy and dollars these days for my car hobby. At this point my interest is more in improving drivability.

Do we have any cam cards posted on this site? I was trying to find a thread with some in on sqc, but I did not find it yet?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 29, 2014, 07:40:25 PM
This is what Steve at TEP sent me at the time.

You need to set the cam at exact split overlap. That means the intake and exhaust valves are both off the seat the exact same amount at TDC.

 

HR70 Cam Numbers

109 lc

26 Intake open
64 Intake Close

64 Exhaust opend
26 Exhaust Close

@ .006 lash

.435 lift

 
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 29, 2014, 09:28:29 PM
I personally have a group of cam cards, but there is a list in the longblock section
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 02, 2014, 09:59:39 PM
Ok, I got my head around the scnider 274 and hr 70 cam differences. That is some thing I should experiment with  some day.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 02, 2014, 10:05:02 PM
I final put a good run down at the track.  :)

1.750  60'
8.109  @  89.52  1/8
12.558  @  113.79

27 psi
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 03, 2014, 12:16:02 AM
Nice Run!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 03, 2014, 03:09:23 AM
This is what Steve at TEP sent me at the time.

You need to set the cam at exact split overlap. That means the intake and exhaust valves are both off the seat the exact same amount at TDC.

 

HR70 Cam Numbers

109 lc

26 Intake open
64 Intake Close

64 Exhaust opend
26 Exhaust Close

@ .006 lash

.435 lift

That would make it just a 270/70 109LSA/109ICL 52OL seat-to-seat. Depending on the .050 numbers, It might be descent. That seems like a good low end profile. May be a factor in getting to 6000.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 03, 2014, 07:50:46 PM
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSCF2003-001_zpsb469676d.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSCF2003-001_zpsb469676d.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSCF2001_zpsf800c7b5.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSCF2001_zpsf800c7b5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 03, 2014, 09:20:36 PM
What was the difference between the 2?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: TainterRacing on May 03, 2014, 09:53:32 PM
Did you get vids of both runs? I found it a big help to have them if you do get the launch up close as you can. Then write down what you did how it felt. How you heated up the tires and Then do it a few times. Even if it was not the time you were looking for to see if the same results were gotten. Once you can duplicate a run once you get the right combo its not to hard to get it again and again. mmmmm Just looking I bet the track started to cool down and your tires did not stick as much maybe... That can be good. You want some wheel spin, allot of guys think if I get  tons of traction you get a good 60ft but you can get to much.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 04, 2014, 05:51:06 AM
27 vs 24 psi
higher launch rpm
1-2 shift was quicker by .25
2-3 shift was quicker by .15

I did not feel any spin, but the rpm log shows there was a little. I did have cool air and the track was fully prepped because the pro cars were testing for the saterday shoot out.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 04, 2014, 12:40:47 PM
Sounds like the right amount of tirespin! You shouldnt notice it when in the car. You want it to spin but also propel the car forward. But Im sure you know all of that. Nice run.

what are you using for ignition? Do you have a 2step?

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 04, 2014, 02:26:47 PM
No 2 step yet. It is a Mallory 6al, and I do not think i can use the msd 2 step modules with it. I do not want to spend the money on a modual when I could do it with ms, when and if that happens.

Bulding zero boost at the line does not help the 60'.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 04, 2014, 06:41:05 PM
true, but it greatly improves consistency. Just make the 2step pill
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 20, 2014, 04:56:11 PM
I got home pushed in the clutch and bam. Some thing broke with  a bang and the pedal went to the floor.  ??? Oh well, I should have pulled the trans to check for the source of a vibration a while ago.  ;)

Well i am off  to work  the car in to the garage.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 20, 2014, 07:48:01 PM

Something broke in my Act pressure plate, or maybe some of the mounting bolts popped out.  It will not disengage, so I have to pull it to find out what is wrong.


UH OH!  :o

Not hydraulics???
Not Hydraulics. Had a vibration for a while. Some where I have a used and abused speck 3 plus. I might put that in.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 24, 2014, 08:26:48 PM
Now I have another problem. This does not explain my vibration. The vibration is like the typical bse engine buzz, but 2 or 3 times worse.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Damaged%20parts/DSC03479_zps70a79959.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Damaged%20parts/DSC03479_zps70a79959.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 24, 2014, 09:31:24 PM
Nice

When does it vibe? Any significant related action?
idle, cruise, in gear, in neutral?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: wrngwae on May 24, 2014, 10:23:45 PM
i don't see anything wrong there.... its a traction assist mode lol..... I have never seen a broken fork like that usually its the clip that rust out... huh... must be a bad ass pressure plate. im having issues of putting it in first or reverse. and clunky shifts. I my have to drop the trans and look. I have my clutch pedal rod almost too long I think to help with the problem. but its not helping much, Hey John, how is your thrust bearing on your crank? just curious.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 25, 2014, 01:47:12 AM
Tye, your problem is linkage or hydro most likely. Will it clunk going into first if you double pump the pedal?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 25, 2014, 09:01:34 PM
Hey John, how is your thrust bearing on your crank? just curious.


When does it vibe? Any significant related action?
idle, cruise, in gear, in neutral?
.005 crank end play.

The vibe is like a car with hard motor mounts.

Which is what is wrong. Metal to metal contact from a failed pass side  aftermarket engine mount.

Looks like the u joints are on the way out also.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 25, 2014, 11:18:37 PM
Failed pass engine mount?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: wrngwae on May 26, 2014, 07:40:33 AM
Failed pass engine mount?

Yes, do tell??? and phil double clutching dosent help. still has slight drag im thinking.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 26, 2014, 06:46:57 PM
The top plate is setting on the collar. It looks like the rubber broke down and oozed out of place. Maybe the heat killed it?  This was new from rock auto about 4 years ago. They fit and looked like chit from the get go. Only new motor mounts I ever bought. Put a 25 year old oem in. I think it has another 25 years in it.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/DSC03484_zpsbf0d5431.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/DSC03484_zpsbf0d5431.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: wrngwae on May 27, 2014, 06:15:17 AM
John, i have never seen that before. looks like it was heat affected. good thing you do have the metal shield in there. lol.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 01, 2014, 10:26:45 AM
The car is back together. I tried Phil's suggestion to put a spacer behind the clutch fork pivot ball. I used a head stud washer. The hole is a little big, but both sides are machined.

There is a big difference in clutch engagement height vs pre shift fork breaking. The fork is in the center of the trans opening, and the slave pistion is not trying to come out of the cylinder.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 01, 2014, 10:34:23 AM
Thats exactly what I use, ARP stud washer.

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 01, 2014, 10:52:56 AM
That's exactly what I use, ARP stud washer.
Thanks for the ideal. It works.  8)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 01, 2014, 01:04:52 PM
It also reduces the angle/stress on the shift fork. Now you just need to solidify that ridiculous dampner. ;)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 01, 2014, 07:35:07 PM
It also reduces the angle/stress on the shift fork. Now you just need to solidify that ridiculous dampner. ;)
I already did that a year or two back.

Wrngway are you paying attention? Your car is not going to fix it's self.  :)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 01, 2014, 11:41:16 PM

Wrngway are you paying attention? Your car is not going to fix it's self.  :)

hahaha
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 01, 2014, 11:43:12 PM
Now you need to do the pedal stop mod since you no longer need all that travel.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: wrngwae on June 02, 2014, 04:10:59 PM

Wrngway are you paying attention? Your car is not going to fix it's self.  :)

hahaha


ya ya,,, im reading. lol just need a head to put on first. does the trans have to come out to put this majic arp washer in? im not too sure where you all talking about? at the pivot point of the shift fork in the bell housing?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 13, 2014, 08:12:47 PM
My walbro fuel pump is not doing what it once could any more So i picked up a Bosch 044. The thing is big! Hopefully the fittings will come in monday.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on September 13, 2014, 08:41:54 PM
What fittings did you get? I need to put my 044 in as well.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: RonnieJ on September 14, 2014, 10:42:55 AM
I have metric to an adapters and 6an push lock fittings on my 044


sizes for reference

(http://jdlautodesign.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/bosch044fp.jpg)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 14, 2014, 01:30:59 PM
I ordered this kit.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-3-8-AN-barb-fitting-kit-bosch-044-fuel-pump-/350525401576?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item519cf129e8&vxp=mtr  I was hoping to get it friday, but they were out of one of the parts. Oh well, it should be here monday or tuesday.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on September 14, 2014, 02:18:09 PM
yeah, I gotta order a 18x1.5 10an adapter.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 18, 2014, 08:56:33 PM

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Fuel%20pump/DSC03544_zps6398e6b9.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Fuel%20pump/DSC03544_zps6398e6b9.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: starquestjoe on September 19, 2014, 06:10:42 AM
Looks like a good layout John. What gauge wire did you use for power and ground?  And if a relay what amp? I just got a 70amp 10-12ga power (30) and 10-12ga on (87) . Im goin to run straight from the battery kill switch to the relay. Then to the pump under the back bumper. I plan to run from a sump as I dont want to burn up a A1000. I have it mounted in the same place you have it. And I dont believe they have a check valve
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on September 19, 2014, 09:18:53 AM
add a stocker in series to feed the a1000
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 19, 2014, 07:59:35 PM
Joe, I have a 10 gage from a breaker by the battery to the relay in the hatch. 12 gauge power and ground from the relay to the pump. The pump is grounded in the hatch area. The relay is turned on by my ecu That  is aways a good ideal, so if the engine stops, the pump will stop. It is probally a 30 amp relay. The 044 should draw about 12-13 amps at the pressure I run.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: starquestjoe on September 19, 2014, 10:41:12 PM
Thanks john.
Ii will be switching the pump on via the tec2. The power will come from the battery kill switch at the back of my car.
Ill use the 10ga from battery,  then 12ga for power and ground at the pump. I chose the 70amp relay do to the large  power and supply terminals.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 30, 2014, 07:08:47 PM
More on the fuel pump install.
I had ordered this kit.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-3-8-AN-barb-fitting-kit-bosch-044-fuel-pump-/350525401576?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item519cf129e8&vxp=mtr 
But ended up not using either 6 an strait push lock barb fitting. The strait fitting was starting to kink the hose on the intake side, so I tried the 90* fitting I had laying around. A 45 probably would have fit nicer.

I use 5/16 fuel line on the pressure side because it slips over the stock hard line and seals well with double clamps. but 5/16 will not go on a push lock 6 ab barb, so I used this from jegs. 555-100845 http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/100845/10002/-1 

If I had it to do again I would have just ordered metric barb fittings from  the uk or tiawan. If you seach bosch 044 fittings on ebay you will find them. There is also a banjo fitting that will work with the check valve that comes with the 044 pump.  http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050890.m570.l1311.R3.TR5.TRC0.A0.H1.Xbosch+044&_nkw=bosch+044+fittings&_sacat=6000
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 30, 2014, 07:14:32 PM
There probably was nothing wrong with the walbro. It just could no longer over come this.  Sadly the e85 is killing the tank.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Fuel%20pump/DSC03549_zps6ea1a317.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Fuel%20pump/DSC03549_zps6ea1a317.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Fuel%20pump/DSC03548_zps6ee1a81a.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Fuel%20pump/DSC03548_zps6ee1a81a.jpg.html)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 30, 2014, 07:27:28 PM
So the in tank filter and under hood filter were changed with the 044 install. But the 044 is not doing any better at the 80-85 psi of fuel pressure I run under boost then when the walbo and filters were healthy. It would surely do better with bigger injectors at lower pressure.

I tried a 1800 primary, but the drivability was unacceptable. I currently have a 1200 primary and do have a 1400 I guess i might as well try.

I believe the stock lines at the front of the car are a restriction at the fuel pressure i am running. 3200 cc total injector size. The 3/8 barb on the inlet of the pump may also be a restriction, so i may order a bigger barb from the UK.   http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOSCH-044-FUEL-PUMP-INLET-FITTING-UNION-FOR-12MM-ID-HOSE-PIPE-ZH-/121394122864?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c43a75070&vxp=mtr
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on September 30, 2014, 11:36:14 PM
Dump those 90deg banjo fittings on the filter. Wish I could find it. Dude in the dsm world did it to test a theory and shaved a couple % DC.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 01, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
Dump those 90deg banjo fittings on the filter. Wish I could find it. Dude in the dsm world did it to test a theory and shaved a couple % DC.
I am looking at running new fuel lines and maybe an aftermarket filter.

 There is a dyno day coming up.

But it seems I have lost my nerve to spend money.   :-\
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 01, 2014, 09:38:15 PM
I feel ya brother
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 03, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
I had hoped to be running a mp why by now, but it did not work out. I have how ever been fooling around with a maybe it will squirt controller for tbi. And mostly it does squirt, but just not enough.

10-11-14 Edit, it had seemed the ms needed more duty cycle then the afc tuning system for the same boost, but that is proving not to be the case.

I did put the 1400 primary in and it is running pretty good and the new pump is working better then it initially seemed. I need to rule out the possibility of clogged screens in the fuel rail or flow issues with the 2000 secondary. There were no signs of flow issues at the spring dyno day.

I can still run the stock ecu by flicking a switch, but I need to do some wiring to get the  innovate logging system fully functional so I can compare duty cycles between the two systems.

I am probably going to upgrade the fuel line from the filter to tb fuel rail. The dsm guys get good results with that.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 04, 2014, 04:00:05 AM
why run staged injection? Stuff another 2000 in there
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 04, 2014, 06:09:46 AM
Currently running staged injection. 2 squirts per cycle simultaneous  fire. HR 11 code. 1400/2000 combo on e85. Still using the peak and hold injector driver.

Well I did try the 1800 as a primary. I had the fuel pressure turned back to try and get a decent idle and never did. I tried 1 squirt per cycle and got it to idle, but cruze drivability was horrible. The car was real jerky. The max staging factor was not enough either.  This was before I replaced the fuel pump and filters, turned on closed loop at idle and made a change to bring the secondary in sooner, which helped the staging.

I guess I could try it again, but I am already at the max staging factor with the 1400 primary.

Phil, how was Starwolfs car set up? Squirts per cycle? simultaneous or alternating fire? I think he had twin 1150's? on gas. That would be similar to about twin 1500's on e85. Not all that much smaller than I have with e85 factored in.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 05, 2014, 04:20:00 AM
2 squirts
simultaneous
1200's
45psi~50psi
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 11, 2014, 08:49:17 PM
I installed 6an line from the filter. It seems to be helping the fuel flow.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03572_zps134bad4b.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03572_zps134bad4b.jpg.html)

I also picked up this 12mm inlet barb from the UK. Got it in 7 days. It may not get installed for a while. The picture is besides a 6an push lock barb like I am now using. It is shorter then the an adapter / barb combo which is a plus. The 044 pumps are longer then the walbro's

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOSCH-044-FUEL-PUMP-INLET-FITTING-UNION-FOR-12MM-ID-HOSE-PIPE-ZH-/121394122864?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c43a75070&vxp=mtr

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03574_zpsbaf350a0.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03574_zpsbaf350a0.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03573_zpsbc8fc74b.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03573_zpsbc8fc74b.jpg.html)

I also moved the fuel pressure sensor from the fuel rail to the regulator where it is about 20* cooler, hopefully I will have less heat soak error there. They are really not supposed to be on the engine anyway due to the vibration.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03571_zpscca9a915.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03571_zpscca9a915.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 29, 2014, 06:46:05 PM
Two years ago when I ran the t3 sy/ty 8cm hot side I had boost control issues on the street. It did not run enough psi on the spring (stock waste gate actuator) and would spike badly when I cranked up the ebc. The stock actuator did not have enough travel to fully open the gate.

I wanted to try the t3 hot side again.

So I thought I would give this a try with the 1 bar spring.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03583_zps1ddfbbb6.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03583_zps1ddfbbb6.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03580_zps8dacc9e4.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03580_zps8dacc9e4.jpg.html)

I ordered the sq version, thinking I could resell it if it did not work out, and the 1 bar spring separate.

If you ever order one of these, order it with the spring you want installed. It is a pia to get the diafram back in place. I will have to post about that later.

It barely has enough travel for the t3 hot side, but it works great.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 29, 2014, 09:06:42 PM
badass, where did you get it?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 30, 2014, 03:17:00 AM
Kinugawa turbo.

http://stores.ebay.com/Authentic-Boost/Actuator-/_i.html?_fsub=1143252010&_sid=409231170&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kinugawa-Billet-Adjustable-Turbo-Actuator-Mitsubishi-Starion-TC05-TD05-TD05H-/381020620383?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item58b699465f
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 30, 2014, 03:32:34 AM
Hanging out with the v8's, Phil would have whipped them all.  ;D

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Car%20Shows/DSC03595_zps1c336f8d.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Car%20Shows/DSC03595_zps1c336f8d.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Car%20Shows/DSC03610_zpsb683854a.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Car%20Shows/DSC03610_zpsb683854a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: starquestjoe on October 31, 2014, 07:34:24 AM
Looks ok john but what is happening around 5k rpm?  And the curves are choppy
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 02, 2014, 11:11:56 AM
Looks ok john but what is happening around 5k rpm?  And the curves are choppy
Are  you talking about the power dip at 5k? The initial boost spike is used up and the boost is starting drop there. Then recovers slightly before tailing off. The boost spike was minimal on the first to pulls. About 2 psi on the last two with an additional 1 psi tail off.

How much boost was I running? That is a good question! Ms and logworks do not agree. I was believing logworks, but when that signal maxed out at 27.5 psi, clearly something is wrong there. Ms says about 27 on the first pull and 31 on the last.

The pulls were made on ms. We got to wide open throttle late because ms goes stupid lean when I try to accelerate , Probably would have be better just to mash it, let it stumble and then recover.

I sent the ms off for a ms2 upgrade. The car runs so much better on the piggy back system.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 03, 2015, 08:41:18 PM
It has been a long cold, snow, ice, and salt covered winter.  I hope to get the car out tomarrow or sunday.

The ms2 was a big improvement over ms1. And thanks to Scott for some much need help with the tune.

The sterring box leaks really bad in cold weather and the rear leaks as well. Maybe I will replace them this year.   :-\
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 18, 2015, 09:24:32 PM
Well the car still runs. I picked up the 10 hz gps module https://www.efianalytics.com/products/BT-Q818XT.html?id=tshelp. I can't get the laptop blue tooth adapter to work, but it works with the  usb cable.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: PSU_Crash on April 19, 2015, 06:29:10 AM
Sounds like you're having a good time down there! I have spent a lot of time working on accel enrichments and they still aren't right. Always a quick lean spike, then pig rich as if something isn't reacting fast enough when I up the enrichment.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 19, 2015, 12:43:42 PM
I have spent time working on accel enrichments and they still aren't right. Always a quick lean spike, then pig rich as if something isn't reacting fast enough when I up the enrichment.
Sounds like my car. I have been starting to blame some of it on tbi, but yours is mpi!  ???
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 19, 2015, 03:03:21 PM
People always go too high with thier accel.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: PSU_Crash on April 20, 2015, 09:21:09 AM
I kept increasing mine to try and smooth out the lean spike when I hit the gas without a lot of luck. It's better than it was but it still spikes lean then rich on a quick stab.

Guessing your logs look a lot like this, this causes a slight stumble on tip in. It's very noticeable on free rev (as in this log) but it isn't nearly as bad when driving.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/908/kM5vtD.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/p8kM5vtDp)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 05, 2015, 11:55:04 AM
I went to the spring dyno day a couple of weeks ago. I was not really looking for max power. Most previous runs were in cooler dry air, and I was curious how much the heat and humid air was effecting the car. The logs were showing a significant drop in duty cycle from early in the year.

Running MS 2.We went wot at about 3100. With the piggy back tuning system I had to roll into the throttle on less I altered the street tune. Full boost was hit at about 3900 rpm. First run was a disappointing 322 hp. It was a little rich up top so I leaned it out some.

T3 8cm hot side. Standard td06 turbine billet 6+6 20g compressor. Same as last fall.

Run -- Boost--   Boost at peak power-----HP
1------25.4---------25.4--------------------322
2------28-26.8-----27----------------------344
3------29-27.3-----27.4--------------------361

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03625_zps3dhnwefl.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03625_zps3dhnwefl.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03627-001_zpsktjz5tsl.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03627-001_zpsktjz5tsl.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: PSU_Crash on June 11, 2015, 07:06:31 PM
Still nice numbers! I wish I could successfully run over 20psi on the dyno and not break up :(
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 13, 2015, 05:18:03 PM
Woulda expected the power to hit sooner. Whats your timing map look like?

Looks sooo much smoother than your old graphs.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 13, 2015, 09:09:10 PM
The smoothness was noted by the dyno operator who remarked he thought it was the best it ever ran. And it was.

The first run was to rich and was chopper.

One the 361 pull. Still a little rich. The car likes 11.75
afr   rpm   duty cycle
10.3--3900-----78.3
11.4--5100-----82.1
11.2--5600-----86.0

Looking at past dyno sessions, I would say that ms2 gives smoother afr then the piggy back system, but the piggy back was smoother then the ms1 high resolution code. 

The dyno operator feels that choppy power curves are often the result of not enough timing on forced induction cars and mentioned reversion being a factor.

I am still using stock timimg control. With base timing at 15* I think the car wants more timing.

Just a reminder to the new guys that this is a e85 car.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 28, 2015, 07:22:58 PM
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03649_zpsejzp8pti.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03649_zpsejzp8pti.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03650_zpsf0roorrk.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03650_zpsf0roorrk.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03653_zpsampkiynh.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03653_zpsampkiynh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on July 04, 2015, 09:04:04 PM
My fuel pressure transducer craped out. It is always something.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: wrngwae on July 04, 2015, 10:38:40 PM
If nothing ever broke you would be bored...lol
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 15, 2015, 09:21:54 PM
how goes the beast John? You MPY yet?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 15, 2015, 09:23:43 PM
Still nice numbers! I wish I could successfully run over 20psi on the dyno and not break up :(
Are you running enough dwell?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 19, 2015, 05:16:54 PM
how goes the beast John? You MPY yet?
Maybe next year.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 30, 2015, 09:44:39 PM
I had put a cat on the car for the state inspection. But then never took it in do to it being a crappy install and working a lot. Finally got it in today and got a fresh sticker. I immediately removed the cat as it made the car sluggish off boost and the band clamps kept working loose.

I tweaked the tune and got it coming off the shifts better and headed to the track. Best was a 13.0 @ 111. But i could not really nail the launch or the 1-2 shift. I was just getting uses to the mk short shifter. but now some thing is pucked up after the last run and now it will not shift right.

So back on jack stands.  :(
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 30, 2015, 11:41:04 PM
Well thats crappy! Some good mph though!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: PSU_Crash on November 01, 2015, 08:43:05 PM
Sounds like a good day at the track ... until the end. That sucks! I'll be watching to see what you find.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: PSU_Crash on November 01, 2015, 08:46:19 PM
Are you running enough dwell?

I scoped the dwell a while back and set it to 5ms nominal. Looking over a log I am at 4.86mS dwell at 20psi.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on November 03, 2015, 06:38:04 PM
The bolts fell out of the bottom of the mk1 shifter that held the round tower in place. No sign of sealant, locktite or or a gasket between the base and the tower. The threads are a little beat up, but locktite should fix it.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on March 24, 2016, 08:48:18 PM
Swapping out a leaking power steering box. So I thought I would mock this up.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03668_zps8atr5bhn.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03668_zps8atr5bhn.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03669_zpslhvvlmmj.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03669_zpslhvvlmmj.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03670_zps1aaujczv.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03670_zps1aaujczv.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03671_zpsi4np0kpy.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03671_zpsi4np0kpy.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on March 25, 2016, 01:47:57 AM
I actually like it. Injectors could be closer to the head but its better than tbi and prolly more than capable for these motors. Gato and the EIP i believe were nearly that far back.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 19, 2016, 07:10:25 PM
I need to finish some stuff off, but it is running.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03674_zpso8ulrbsx.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03674_zpso8ulrbsx.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03673_zpscpwcvwen.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03673_zpscpwcvwen.jpg.html)

A 30* coupler helped, but I still have some rubbing issues with the ovc pipe to work out.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03672_zps7ehihn01.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03672_zps7ehihn01.jpg.html)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 20, 2016, 01:10:35 PM
Thats awesome John! Bet its gonna scream
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: cyberquest on April 20, 2016, 06:06:41 PM
yea looks badass.

is this the monster 400hp TBI car or a different one?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on April 20, 2016, 10:32:51 PM
I take it your doing fuel only?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on April 21, 2016, 03:38:40 AM
Yes Brian this is the same car and motor.

Fuel only for now. It seems like it wants to go, I do not think it will be any slower.  :)

Tune was coming around, but then I relized I had the fuel pressure set way to low. Hopefully I can get it out tonight and start over.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 01, 2016, 07:11:21 PM
April 30 2016 Dyno

Mpi 26 and 29 psi. Blew a heater hose off on the second run. Got some help from good air, corrected #'s were 366 and 388
 
Did a leak down test at 35 psi. No gurgling in the radiator. Hose champ was jamming and not getting tight. Maybe that's all it was?  Nothing came out the radiator over flow.

Maybe I should replace the head gasket anyway?

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/131_zpsxpr3nx84.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/131_zpsxpr3nx84.jpg.html)

Way smoother then tbi. Compare to this one from 2014

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03289_zpsc8be577a.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03289_zpsc8be577a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: cyberquest on May 01, 2016, 10:55:27 PM
wow seeing the same car with results on paper to compare them you can really see a difference.

but......now you can now longer be my TBI hero.  :'(

great work either way!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: PSU_Crash on May 02, 2016, 06:19:50 PM
Very impressive! Even with smoothing factor at 5 that's one of the best looking graphs I've ever seen. Your torque curve is perfect, Comes on hard and holds to redline. Great job!
Sounds like you finally answered MP-Y LOL
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 02, 2016, 06:43:16 PM
I had not noticed it in the street tuning, but the boost held up better and did not tail of like it used to. looks like I could rev it out a little further.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 02, 2016, 09:02:05 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: DieHARDmitsu on May 03, 2016, 11:54:10 AM
Good job man!

Are you still running that Hr70 cam?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 03, 2016, 04:27:40 PM
Good job man!

Are you still running that Hr70 cam?
Yes
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 03, 2016, 04:44:27 PM
Your still not using ignition control correct?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 03, 2016, 05:01:44 PM
Your still not using ignition control correct?
No ignition controle yet. I have most of the pieces to do it.

I did give it another 2 or 3 degrees from what I have been running for a few years. So base about 17-18

so 17 + 33? from the centrifugal advance - 12-15 from the advance retard module. I forget if mine tested at 12 or 15, -12 from the knock sensor = about 25   E85 for fuel.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 03, 2016, 05:12:14 PM
Injectors are 1200's, duty cycle peaked at 70. Base fuel pressure about 44-45. Having the regulator reference line below the throttle body had me scratching my head trying to set the pressure.   :)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 03, 2016, 07:27:50 PM
Too bad you didnt get to back the timing off for a pull. Its always nice to reassure yourself that your tune is in the right county. Great job man! Im glad you want that route with the manifold. It shows how much you can improve a setup without a ton of modifications. Stock tstat location, tbi piping, etc. Its really a smart way to approach it.

Your toaster oven makes me want strawberry toaster struedals!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: cyberquest on May 04, 2016, 01:37:39 PM
i really admire the way you guys are still thinking of new ways to to improve the cars performance and putting down as much power and ET times as 2jz swapped cars. its just amazing what your able to do with a 30 year old SOHC motor that started life in a forklift...lol.

with the setup SQR is running and like phil mentioned its a much more simple approach to going mpi and cheaper not having to outsource the magna intake and the cost of having it modded to work and having to relocate all your piping. with scotts plug and play standalone and a setup like SQR its really starting to put mpi in the price range a working joe could afford.

keep up the GREAT work!!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 04, 2016, 02:16:18 PM
So your gonna bring that sucker to Branson, right John?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 04, 2016, 06:56:34 PM
It might take me that long to change the head gasket.

What do you guys think, it has been on there since aug 2012. replace it.

Or do a leak down at bdc at 100 psi and see if that shows anything?

Or turn the boost down and wait and see?

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: PSU_Crash on May 04, 2016, 08:17:33 PM
I'd do a leakdown for sure. Maybe it shows something ... maybe it doesn't. Even if it tests out fine it would always be in the back of my mind ... waiting for it to come loose. Maybe it's just my builds that do that though :)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 04, 2016, 10:46:36 PM
Why does it need a HG?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 05, 2016, 03:42:31 AM
The blown off heater hose may be a sign of combustion gas getting into the cooling system. granted nothing came out the overflow.

  I would expect to see signs of leakage (soot marks) on the drivers side. I have seen it the last time the head was off and on other peoples cars that are pushed hard.  Preventive measures.

The down side is these things tend to snow ball beyond just a gasket replacement.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 05, 2016, 11:06:17 AM
It blew off a heater hose but didnt push any out the radiator?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 05, 2016, 07:34:28 PM
It blew off a heater hose but didnt push any out the radiator?
Correct.

 The long story is the heater hoses and clamps were shot. Oem is not available, so I got hoses from advance auto and new worm clamps from the hard ware store. The clamps seemed to be jamming before the were really tight. I thought about ordering different clamps, but left them on and forgot about it. thinking back, i think the hose was a loose fit on this nipple as well. The one that came off. The shop guy says, there is something wrong with this clamp when he tried to put it back on.

The hose came off on decell. Coolant temp peaked at 191 during decell.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03669_zpslhvvlmmj.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03669_zpslhvvlmmj.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 05, 2016, 11:24:39 PM
Id just burp it and make sure all the hose clamps are good to go. The worm clamps will also loosen over time. I agree with you about HG changes spiraling outta control. I avoid it for that exact reasoning or do it with my eyes closed hahaha.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 07, 2016, 08:57:32 PM
I had the car out to day for about an hour hit 25 26 psi a few times for short pulls in low gears, no signs of trouble. Fixed a small boost leak. Have a big one at the tps though.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 07, 2016, 10:32:45 PM
Gotta swueeze off a high load 4th pull to be sure.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 08, 2016, 01:27:12 PM
Gotta swueeze off a high load 4th pull to be sure.
Like maybe a max effort 30 psi 1/4 mile blast?

I am tempted  to plumb a spare pressure transducer in to the cooling system.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 08, 2016, 02:42:41 PM
Like a long incline hill pull. Take it all the way up.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 08, 2016, 07:46:09 PM
I should have put a smileys after the 1/4 mile remark.  :)

 I do my wide open tuning on a up hill run in 3rd gear. It loads the engine exactly like the dyno. That's one of my secrets, I pretty much know how the tune and boost controller settings are going to act on the dyno.  ;)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 09, 2016, 02:44:42 PM
Yeah, it's probably not a loaded dyno then.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 20, 2016, 07:55:41 AM
I think my blow off valve is leaking boost under certain conditions. Like at 2/3 throttle when the turbo is ready to go. Sound like a huge boost leak. It does not sound like surge, but does happen in similar conditions to where surge would be suspect. Cover is surge ported.

Ideals, suggestions? Not sure how to nail it down. I did pressure test to 20 psi but could not get the pressure higher then that due to leakage through the motor. I do have a big leak at the throttle body seal.

The tb seems to have the same seal as the 4.6 tb's that were popular. It just looks like a sealed bearing. Was this a problem with the 4.6 ford tb's?

Maybe I should try a bigger hot side, or turbo.  ;)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 20, 2016, 10:00:53 AM
If your sitting on threshold, you could be hanging the bov open as the two pressures on the bov will not be equal. But also at the same time, it could be coming through your surge ports. Depending on the location of your MAF you might see it in the datalogs.

And yes, the ford tbodies are notorious for shaft seal leakage.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 20, 2016, 10:43:05 PM
Averaged about 26.2 psi. Best 60' in a long time. I estimate hp about 365-370, so I think there is more in it. Maybe even way more!  ;D. Still a little ragged off the shifts as well.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03678_zpsrzjyr6ab.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03678_zpsrzjyr6ab.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 20, 2016, 10:46:21 PM
And yes, the ford tbodies are notorious for shaft seal leakage.
What do you run? I have two 4.6 tb's for the magna intake. One stock one ported. I hate to waste boost/airflow.  :(
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 20, 2016, 10:57:32 PM
A ford tb that leaks as much as a 12a hahaha

That power should get you 7's
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 20, 2016, 11:12:25 PM
A ford tb that leaks as much as a 12a hahaha

That power should get you 7's
You mean in the 1/8?
What is out there tb wise, that you think would work with the magna?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 21, 2016, 09:03:46 AM
 No John, you should be running 7's in the 1/4....
The few TB's I like are too damn pricey. Have you tried replacing the seals?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 21, 2016, 09:08:06 AM
Magna?? I thought you were using the caravan setup?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 21, 2016, 11:10:47 AM
The caravan intake is on the car, the magna is waiting in the wings. it would be neat to try the magna with out changing anything else.

My tune still needs some work, but I am still seeing evidence of the wet manifold effect from the injector placement.

The caravan intake really should have had some more port work where the tb adapter elbow bolts to the intake. it chocks down pretty much there. Or rework that part altogether to make it more like part of the plenum.

Where can I get tb seals?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 21, 2016, 01:43:33 PM
I think they just have Orings. Its a pretty common issue
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 23, 2016, 07:26:34 PM
Saw this on a dsm site and Phil posted it here as well. http://www.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=NTOSDSMRed&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo

Not sure it's for me, but I have been thinking whats next turbo wise. Fp likes to clip those td06h turbines as well, I do not think that would play well with a 2.6.

I would like to try a td06h turbine, but that is a $400 upgrade and I am not sure it is a good value. But it is quick and easy to bolt on, and would free up my td06 turbine for a different vehicle. A vehicle that may or may not ever get done.

I also have a garatte gt35, but it is a divided housing, a .63 I think, and the cover is not surge ported. If I put it on my chad header I need a bung on the oil pan, which is more work then I want to get into. Plus move a bunch of stuff.

Or I could use a t3 t3 adapter with a waste gate flange, which would let me use the drain port on the front cover. and maybe easyier to plumb up.

Maybe I should sell it and get some thing more modern?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-To-T3-38mm-Cast-Iron-Wastegate-Flange-Manifold-Turbo-Charge-Adaptor-Adapter-/191849643981?hash=item2cab213fcd:g:~4QAAOSwgn5XEedP&vxp=mtr

Not a 100% sure this would work either, waste gate would need to be remote mounted I think and would probably have a trendiest to fall off.

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 24, 2016, 09:46:47 AM
That FP red is a GT35  with a td05 bolt pattern housing. Note the TW measurements.
TD06 in-65mm ex-55mm
FPRed TW in-67mm ex-58mm

I think thats a helluva deal!
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 24, 2016, 07:27:40 PM
Yes I was aware that it was a gt35 compressor and a td06h turbine. That is why I said they like to clip those td06h turbines. similar models show a clipped 12 blade.  I think the 2.6 needs about one size bigger turbine for a given compressor vs the 4g63.

Not sure about that external gate housing, maybe it has a v band flange and bolt holes. I can't see the v band flange in the pictures. Both housings would probably put the compressor housing real close to the valve cover.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 24, 2016, 07:43:59 PM
A clip on a td06 wheel is gonna allow somemore flow. Im use to FP advertising whether or not its clipped. I think for a "bolt-on" turbine it will flow plenty. Id consider the 8cm to be the largest drawback. As far as i can tell, its the 5bolt turbine housing. Im curious what size gate flapper is on it?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on May 24, 2016, 08:09:50 PM
The internal gate is $100 extra. look at the pictures.  this is the green  http://www.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=NTDSMFPGREEN&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo

It shows both turbine housing options. I guess there is always a telephone call or email to clarify.

Yes a clip will flow more, but surge may raise it's ugly head. Been there did that with a td05h.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 24, 2016, 11:13:40 PM
Yeah, but that was a td05h. 06 turbines are perfect for this motor. The wastegate was more a curiousity as to how large the port is. Id rather run a ext off of it. I know the evo 16g had something like a 32 or 36mm gate. So much larger port than whats available on the sq housing.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 29, 2016, 10:06:09 PM
Made 4 runs  this evening.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03687_zps1qlph5xt.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03687_zps1qlph5xt.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC03686_zpsddbcoa6o.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Data%20logs/DSC03686_zpsddbcoa6o.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on June 29, 2016, 11:36:31 PM
Nice
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Bills89quest on June 30, 2016, 10:41:52 AM
Very nice!  This is still a TBI car? 
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on June 30, 2016, 01:39:05 PM
Very nice!  This is still a TBI car?
No, mpi converted caravan intake. 60mm tb. There are pictures a few pages back.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Bills89quest on July 02, 2016, 12:50:38 PM
Very nice!  This is still a TBI car?
No, mpi converted caravan intake. 60mm tb. There are pictures a few pages back.

Cool, I just checked them out.  So did you gain much going from TBI to that Caravan MPI setup as far as at the track ET and MPH?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on July 02, 2016, 02:29:03 PM
Check the database ;)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on July 02, 2016, 08:41:15 PM
Quote
Cool, I just checked them out.  So did you gain much going from TBI to that Caravan MPI setup as far as at the track ET and MPH?

I figure it picked up about 25Hp and broadened and extended  the power band. Way smoother.

I have been to the track 3 different times, ran in the 12's 6 out of 7 runs. Missed a shift on the 13.0 run.  :) Even ran a 12.8 on Nittos spinning in first.

The piggyback tuned tbi worked amazing at the track, but was harder to launch and took 2 or 3 dial in runs.

The tbi mega squirt was a failure at the tack. The tune had some fatal flaws in it that would have taking a lot of time to fix, so I just moved on to the mpi.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on July 02, 2016, 11:57:26 PM
Im impressed you managed to nearly duplicate your fastest TBI pass but just click off a little quicker at the back door. Most people go backwards and have trouble getting back.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on July 27, 2016, 12:02:11 AM
Hey John, I ordered some seals for my ford Tbody. I will post up if it works out.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on September 24, 2016, 02:26:30 PM
Hey John! Whats new? You havent reported any dyno or drag results in a bit.

Also curious if you want to split your project after going mpY?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 24, 2016, 08:39:59 PM
Im impressed you managed to nearly duplicate your fastest TBI pass but just click off a little quicker at the back door. Most people go backwards and have trouble getting back.
I thought I had replied to this but it must have got lost in the Ethernet?

It was almost two years from when I first started working with mega squirt to get to this point. And I was still having issues with poor ae and ego control. I talked to Scott and he got me on track and the drivability is way better then it was.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 24, 2016, 08:58:51 PM
Hey John! Whats new? You havent reported any dyno or drag results in a bit.
The zoning people got on me Aug 3 about my "junk appearing vehicles" The clean up project took all mouth and 60 hours of vacation.  I still have 3 vehicle to pull parts from before being scraped.

I did get to the track Friday and made 3 runs. two 12.9 and a 12.8. One run suffered from a missed shift the other two from wheel spin in first. The car will pretty much run a 12.9 on a mediocre run.

So I used some off the money from selling my 3000 gt and the scrap money and bought some axles. Perhaps they will inspire me to finsh my 3.90 rear and mount up some slicks. Or maybe not.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2177_zpslcgzcxnr.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2177_zpslcgzcxnr.jpg.html)

Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on September 24, 2016, 10:07:20 PM
DAAAAYUM!!! Thats the purchase Ive been avoiding! You buy the used or straight from DSS. I really should get them so I can stop worrying about it but.....funds a weee bit tight.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 25, 2016, 06:11:14 AM
Slighty used, still a lot of money. But worring about destroying axels and rears is not appealing. I have lots of axels, but I have seen the damage they can do to the rears when they break off inside.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on September 30, 2016, 08:21:09 PM
This rear had at least two axels twisted off inside of it, one each side. 600 hp of 2jz power! Some good size chips got up in the pinion bearings. I think the housing may be distorted as well.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Damaged%20parts/DSCF2187_zpsaezhxioy.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Damaged%20parts/DSCF2187_zpsaezhxioy.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Damaged%20parts/DSCF2190_zpsy3kg3ocw.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/Damaged%20parts/DSCF2190_zpsy3kg3ocw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on September 30, 2016, 10:47:55 PM
I snapped an axle at DI Palooza and had to quick change it to get back to run. Well made a handful of passes (worth it since I won the class) but drove on it all weekend. When I finally tore it down the amount of debris found was immense. There were circular gouges where a chunk caught up and rotated between the bearing cap and diff unit. It was bad. A complete teardown is a must.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on September 30, 2016, 10:49:33 PM
Where do you get your shims for setting lash from?
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 01, 2016, 06:29:28 AM
Where do you get your shims for setting lash from?
I got them from Mitsubishi years ago. The last time I worked on a rear I was not happy with the pinion preload, so I ordered a new shim set for that. They gave me the "there are two left" sales pitch. Just now getting back to that project.
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 01, 2016, 05:51:59 PM
Okay, didnt know if there was a generic out there that worked. Thanks
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 01, 2016, 08:18:28 PM
The last time I bought shims was aug 2009.  Which would have been the last time I tried to assemble anything. There should be shims from something that work for pinion depth. The side shims would probably be the hardest to find a match for if they are nla.

I still need to look for the seals for the 3.90 project.

I promised this to a guy who wants to use it for mock up about 3 mouths ago. It was a good relearning experience. Seems I forgot most of the little I knew about how to go about assembling the parts.



(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/DSCF2193_zpsmmazbzfh.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/DSCF2193_zpsmmazbzfh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 08, 2016, 07:39:19 PM
I am going to have a go at getting this on the road.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/1987%20Raider/DSC03701_zps42qxj9ut.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/1987%20Raider/DSC03701_zps42qxj9ut.jpg.html)

Another stalled project.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/1987%20Raider/DSC03677_zpshfcnp8dv.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/1987%20Raider/DSC03677_zpshfcnp8dv.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/1987%20Raider/DSC03675_zpsd1prmbjq.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/1987%20Raider/DSC03675_zpsd1prmbjq.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging and understanding the stock ecu. The evolution of the TBI monster.
Post by: Sqr on October 08, 2016, 08:23:36 PM
The other 2.6,  My 1986 Allison XR2002

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/1986%20Allison%202002/DSC03622_zps1grv8wgk.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/1986%20Allison%202002/DSC03622_zps1grv8wgk.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/1986%20Allison%202002/DSC03621_zpskuosbt5e.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/1986%20Allison%202002/DSC03621_zpskuosbt5e.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/1986%20Allison%202002/DSC03620_zpsga4fiebi.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/1986%20Allison%202002/DSC03620_zpsga4fiebi.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 08, 2016, 10:26:47 PM
I want that Raider!!
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on October 29, 2016, 07:35:02 PM
I wasted all afternoon going to the track. It was a cluster jam and one oil down after another.

After 2 hours I got to run. Bogged the launch and then it still spun when the boost hit, If I would have nailed the launch it would have just fried the tires any way. And then missed forth gear. Fml. Coasted to a 13.5 @ 86.

Phil, you ever try the throttle body o ring?
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: FunkyPhil on October 30, 2016, 12:46:25 AM
Actually about to tackle that
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on November 24, 2016, 08:35:21 PM
Test.   2.197 60' Must have been taken right before the big bog. Ran a blistering 13.8 @ 431.44. I have the time slip to prove it. LOL

http://www.cecilcountyphotos.com/racing-photo-gallery/2016-photos/11192016/#photo=c25b331d79f2d83a723228f9ef0f6e57
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: FunkyPhil on November 24, 2016, 10:01:22 PM
Haha, you only get to make 1 pass?
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on November 25, 2016, 06:58:16 AM
1.835  13.39 @ 88.49  Ground my way in to second, and never got it in to fourth.
1.828  13.25 @ 107.10  Rode clutch to much and it may have slipped some. Slowly ground my way in to second and fourth
Last run run tried to let the cluth out a ittle harder and got the big bog.

So what went wrong? Well for one thing, I was trying to shift a little higher to better take advantage of the power band. The transmission does not like it.  And some days my hand and foot timing is just off. The lack of lunch rpm control is a big handicap.
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: FunkyPhil on November 25, 2016, 10:25:30 AM
Gotta turn on that launch control! You think it's synchros or adjustment hindering you? I know Ryans shifts above 6k without any trouble.
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on December 03, 2016, 07:00:31 PM
Gotta turn on that launch control! You think it's synchros or adjustment hindering you? I know Ryans shifts above 6k without any trouble.
synchros and operator error.
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on December 03, 2016, 07:10:44 PM
Another disappointing day at the track.

I mounted up some old mt et steet's I had. New, but about 11 years old. No improvement. I just spun with some wheel hop to boot. Air temp was in the mid 40's and cloudy.  But it was not the track. There were guys putting there cars on the bumper  or carrying the wheels 200 feet.  I guess the tires are just to old. Second gear burn out on the limiter before the last run was no help. Some day I need to put a line lock in.

Best was a pair of 13.351's at 111 and 112.

Spotted a pick up at a car lot on the way home and thought about trading it in.
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: FunkyPhil on December 04, 2016, 02:41:00 AM
what 60ft? Did you put in the DSS shafts yet?
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on December 04, 2016, 06:17:24 AM
2.105-13.376-109.6
2.197-13.470-111.1
2.094-13.351-112.3
2.063-13.351-111.3

I did not put the axles in yet. Lucky I got away with the violent wheel hop on the one run. Was so bad my laptop crashed.

The taller tires dropped my trap rpm about 150 rpm    225 50 vs   mt 26 10.50 16

The tires just broke loose almost right away. I was hitting 26 psi about  .8-.9 seconds out.

14 psi in the tires the last run.
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: FunkyPhil on December 04, 2016, 09:11:00 AM
When I launch, i release the clutch like Im tryin to do a burnout
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Bills89quest on December 09, 2016, 09:44:31 AM
Damn, very nice mph...you get some good tires on that thing and figure out the launch, with 111mph, you should be able to high some high 11s.   
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on May 14, 2017, 07:13:24 PM
I ordered parts to upgrade to a td06h turbine. They sent me a td06sl2 turbine housing, and they chaimed they were the same. Sent it back a got the housing from China for $50 less. When to work on it yesterday and a different vender had sent me standard td06 turbine. I can not get a break lately.

I was not going to dyno but they were razzing me to run the mini van and got the fever and went home for the car. The boost contoler was set from my last track outing. It ran about 3 psi less at the track.

414 the first run. Went full throttle a little sooner then usually, which probably helped the tq. Afr was running around 11.5. E85 on the gas afr scale.

33 psi at peak tq
31.4 at peak hp
30 at 6100 rpm.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2017%20April%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2723_zpswfh905s0.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/2017%20April%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2723_zpswfh905s0.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2017%20April%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2718_zpsyjkg73ri.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/2017%20April%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2718_zpsyjkg73ri.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: FunkyPhil on May 14, 2017, 09:05:14 PM
Love it. Looks so smooth!
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on June 08, 2017, 06:56:49 PM
Well I got the garage cleaned out, the car in, and started on the td06h turbine upgrade. Ended up getting a 11 blade turbine.
Title: Re: Data logging & understanding the stock ecu. Evolution of the TBI Monster to Mpi
Post by: Sqr on June 18, 2017, 07:51:44 PM
o6h 11 blade

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2787_zpspfwwpv03.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2787_zpspfwwpv03.jpg.html)

Standard 06 12 blade

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2784_zpsme713d9q.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2784_zpsme713d9q.jpg.html)

After market 06h housing, has a shorter waste gate arm which may make using the stock actuator possible.

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2783_zpsqxax9dpp.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2783_zpsqxax9dpp.jpg.html)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2781_zpsjnptllgw.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2781_zpsjnptllgw.jpg.html)

Same 20g compressor

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2780_zpshdwpxqwp.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/StarquestRescue/media/June%202017%20parts%20for%20sale/DSCF2780_zpshdwpxqwp.jpg.html)